Picked up this rifle today.
Looks mostly matching.
The biggest issue I see is that the trigger guard and floor plate are NOT matching to the receiver.
The remainder of the rifle appears matching.
I would like input on the rifle.
Also any info would be appreciated.
more photos
additional pics
more pics
You have a rifle made by Steyr Daimler Puch in 1941. It's missing the front band spring (as shown in the last set of pics, image number 2). The stock has been refinished with some sort of shiny coating, definitely done post war. In the 3rd group of images, picture number 4, that overstamp on the safety lever and in the second group of images, picture number 3, that front band serial number just looks too crisp and off to me. I may be wrong. It's not a bad rifle but those are a few things that caught my eye.
Does the rifle have Waa77 stamps ? If so on what parts ? The receiver was made at Radom .
Good morning.
Thank you all for your input so far.
I will check for the waa77 stamps and get back to you all.
As for the stock, it was definitely NOT re-finished. It is just in excellent shape.
The photography is making it look shiny.
The concerns that I had were two fold:
First, as Kar98k pointed out, the bolt parts seemed to have been re-stamped from a number 2 to a number 7 on most of the parts. But it seems to be on all of the bolt parts so I am wondering whether it could have been done at the factory.
Second, the numbers on the trigger guard and floor plate do not match (and there are no numbers on the capture screws).
I know you are going to say buy the gun and not the story however I got this rifle from a friend of mine who is the son of a WWII vet.
He was a combat photographer during the war and has many bring backs. The son assures me that his pop brought the rifle back from WWII.
I have purchased a number of items from his bring back collection and all are top notch.
I am wondering whether it was arsenal rebuilt by the Germans who added the trigger guard and floor plate?
And maybe the bolt was renumbered at the factory?
Thoughts would be appreciated.
I will look for the Waa77 marks today.
No duffle bag cut under the barrel band BTW.
Also strange is that the bolt stop seems to have been re-numbered (7 stamped over number 2).
So it would be one thing if someone re-numbered the bolt to match.
But why would someone need to re-number the bolt stop?
The bolt stop is attached to the receiver and stock which are both correctly numbered.
The stock has clearly been refinished , you can see the wood finish on the metal parts of the stock . Some of the other metal parts have been restamped to make them match the rifle . The rifle also seems to have many different Waa stamps , showing parts from many different makers . I have no idea who put the rifle together from parts and restamped numbers , other than it was not the German military .
Stock has been refinished. Obviously sanded and that isn't a military finish. Over stamped parts indicate to me someone tried to make it matching and it wasn't the Germans.
My advice, steer clear unless it's RC priced. It's a put together.
Not sure what you mean by re-finished. The stock has not been sanded.
There may have been some sort of oil applied that dried up on the metal part of the stock.
Why are you so sure the number was not corrected at the factory?
I am not being smart or trying to dispute the issue.
I just want to know for sure whether the bolt was re-stamped to match by someone other than the German army.
And if so I would like to know how one can tell.
The stock seems to be a non issue in this respect.
I was asked about the Waa stamps.
Here is what I have found.
77 is marked on the: Receiver (next to the 3 swastikas); bolt stop (top); Rear of the bolt; under the bolt handle; under the safety;
Waa623 is marked on the: Barrel (right side); stock; muzzle band;
Waa497 is marked on the butt plate.
There are NO import marks.
Hope this helps.
Update:
Also marked 77 on the bolt sleeve and firing pin.
With your Waa 77 's , I stand by everything I said . I am sorry if that is not what you wanted to hear .
I want to hear any input good or bad. I am not being negative or confrontational. I am just trying to give all relevant info so I can get educated opinions/info.
Can you then please explain so I better understand?
Forget about the stock.
Whether it was coated with something or not is not my biggest concern.
My concern is with the numbering.
Overstamping like that and mismatched numbers like the trigger guard and floorplate are not something the Germans would have done. Anything we've mentioned was done since it was brought back to the States for one reason or another. The overstamping is more than likely somebody, at some point, trying to make it all matching when it was not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton67
I took the bolt apart and found that the firing pin was also re-stamped (7 over 2).
At the suggestion of another member I posted it on the K98K forum and here is what they said:
bolt assembly was most likely renumbered at the factory before final acceptance. anybody's guess about the bottom metal but since the band spring is missing, other parts could have gone missing too since that rifle came into this country. there are plenty of k98k parts around.
I was also told on the K98K forum: The bolt assembly was most likely renumbered at the factory before final acceptance. Steyr had big problems with marking. Crooked, mistakes and such happened on the regular. They would do this. The font and correct acceptances are what has us thinking it's a corrected factory error.
There would be specific stamps if it were arsenal reworked and I haven't seen any.
e/77 is Radom and at this time they were in full supply mode to Steyr with a wide variety of parts. e/623 is Steyr so no problems there either.
Would anyone suggest removing the tung oil or leaving the stock alone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton67
Since you've finally found what it was you wanted to hear then why not tell us whether you should clean the stock off too or not?
It'll save us the time and effort.
By refinished, we mean someone sanded the stock and applied a new finish of some sort to it which are not factory original. The stock has been sanded as the markings are rather faint compared to if new. The stock condition also does not match the condition of the metal which is worn. The stock looks nearly new, very clean, few dings and no scrapes or scratches. They were removed by sanding. For a rifle to have that much wear on the metal but none on the stock, the stock was refinished. I can't answer to the metal, I've never heard of the Germans double stamping serial numbers but K98's are not my specialty. You mention the font, the font of the 7 appears to be stylized while the font of the other three numbers is very plain. Does not match in my opinion.
Since you've finally found what it was you wanted to hear then why not tell us whether you should clean the stock off too or not?
Really??
No need to be negative.
I cant help others had a different opinion than yours.
By refinished, we mean someone sanded the stock and applied a new finish of some sort to it which are not factory original. The stock has been sanded as the markings are rather faint compared to if new. The stock condition also does not match the condition of the metal which is worn. The stock looks nearly new, very clean, few dings and no scrapes or scratches. They were removed by sanding. For a rifle to have that much wear on the metal but none on the stock, the stock was refinished. I can't answer to the metal, I've never heard of the Germans double stamping serial numbers but K98icon's are not my specialty. You mention the font, the font of the 7 appears to be stylized while the font of the other three numbers is very plain. Does not match in my opinion.
Thank you for your input.
IMHO. the stock has been refinished.....
Regards,
Doug
I never gave you an opinion... I thought it looked clean and nice. I was unable to clearly state whether the marks had been altered or factory done, so I left it. Just thought you could save us time here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton67
You are right, you never gave an opinion other than nice rifle.
Sorry, I didnt realize I was wasting everyones time.
Anton,
You aren't wasting everyone's time but you did ask for opinions based on the photos from those that have more experience than you. You then discounted all of us concerning the refinishing of the stock. I personally own over 100 rifles and have quite a bit of experience with stock cleaning, etc and the signs of sanding and refinishing. I've cleaned up numerous stocks where this had been done. Others here have a lot more rifles than I do and said the same thing yet you just discounted it out of hand. It does give the impression you came here with a desire to hear something else and then shopped around until you found it in regards to the numbering of the bolt despite what the "experts" here had to say about it. No one is trying to minimize your rifle, it is a nice looking one, but in the world of collectibility, the K98 is one such that each tiny detail affects its end worth. Even a low end K98 is bringing $500-$600 these days. An all matching documented bring back in great condition can be worth thousands.
Now back to an earlier question. If it were mine, I would remove the finish which is on it now and put BLO or linseed oil on it instead. It will be "more" correct than what is on it now. High gloss is not standard on military rifles.
I apologize if I came off that way.
I did not mean to.
I just couldnt believe looking at the stock that it was sanded because all of the waffen marks are still there and the stock numbers are also there.
So I guess I gave a knee jerk reaction without thinking that maybe it was lightly sanded to take out minor imperfections or make it smooth.
As for the re-finishing aspect I guess I was just not considering adding a coating of possibly tung oil was re-finishing.
I am frankly not sure what the vet put on the rifle. It is not wax. It is not shellac. It really doesnt seem like there is much on it but you can see the yellowing on the metal stock pieces.
Thank you for your input.
Based on your experience, do you have an opinion as to what the coating is?
Also, what would you use to remove it?
Pretty hard to tell what it is from pictures. It could even be many coats of BLO but determination of that would have to be at your end. BLO won't be a hard coat which is what it looks like on the upper surface next to the barrel and on the metal parts.
My preferred removal method is spray on citristrip which you can find at Walmart and a lot of other stores in the paint removal department. It isn't caustic, is water soluble and does a good job of cleaning most finishes and even some dirt which yours doesn't have. It's also fast. Take the action out of the stock, place it in a shower or bathtub and spray a good coat on. Let sit for 20 minutes and wash off. A scrub brush might be helpful if the finish is thick. Second application if needed and rinse again. Generally dries in a few hours and you can start coating with BLO. One can will generally do three stocks.
You could try rubbing it with alcohol first. If it is a type of shellac, that should take it right off. Shellac along with tung oil and BLO all tend to have a yellowish cast.
A third option and maybe the easiest would be a rub down with light steel wool just to get the gloss off. It doesn't look bad as is, is protected, just a bit too shiny.
Thank you very much for the helpful info.
I think the least method first would be the best.
I hate to mess with it too much.
Like you said, the stock actually looks nice - just too shiny.
Yeah, I usually reserve the citristrip to the really nasty ones these days. Least is usually best with rifle stocks.