An interesting legal issue to ponder....

Evening all.

One for our UK members here.

D&B Militara operate a Sec5 business and one of the sevices they are offering is the conversion of MARS rifles to straight pull.

For non UK members, MARS (Manually Actuated Release System) rifles, or Interrupted action semi auto rifles have been around in the UK for a few years.

They are a work around the Semi Auto ban by retaining the working parts to the rear after firing,the bolt group then has to be manually released, by lever or trigger, depending on maker.

Not perfect, but better than nothing...

Well, it looks like these will also move to Sec5 later this year.

My question is this, if D&B convert these to straight pull, wouldn't they still legally speaking, be Sec5 after the changes in classification?

Or......if converted prior to the ban, would they be exempt from that rule and remain under Sec1?

My assumption would be that they would still automatically shift to Sec 5 because it's still effectively and legally the same firearm, reciver, barrel etc.

Unlike the SP L1A1's, Garands etc, that are built from kits with new unported barrels.


I just can't pick apart the legal position here, any thoughts guys?

Not helpful but I can't help but thinking how great it is I don't live in the UK. Or California, or New York or New Jersey.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Not helpful but I can't help but thinking how great it is I don't live in the UK. Or California, or New York or New Jersey.

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You are lucky, I hope it stays that way for you, I really do.

It seems though that a steady stream of US States are moving against Semi Automatic rifles too.

Can individual States really ban what they like?

I assumed your rights were enshrined in Federal law?

John

What do D&B say about it? ;)

Morning David, can't say I have.

I would assume as they are offering the service, they must have a good idea of the legal position...

Seems to me though, you would be better off surrendering the MARS for compensation and using the money to buy an SP VZ58, if that's what you want.

The relative value of the pieces should mean you have money left over....

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

It seems though that a steady stream of US States are moving against Semi Automatic rifles too.

Can individual States really ban what they like?

I assumed your rights were enshrined in Federal law?

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An interesting question. Individual states do all have their own laws regarding firearms. Even inside the individual states some municipalities also have their own laws regarding firearms. Some states like California, New York and New Jersey are pushing the envelope on controlling firearms. At present, I don't think any have attempted an outright ban on semi-auto firearms and with a ruling this past week that explicitly states that semi-automatics are not inherently weapons of war, that isn't going to help their cause. There was a case regarding 3D printed firearms that was just settled last week. The government cannot stop the production of these firearms nor the distribution of the instructions of how to do so. The limitation on them if I have it right is that they cannot be sold once produced. My state, Pennsylvania, for some unknown to me as of yet reason, decided to block the release of the instructions in the state. This is unusual because Pennsylvania is the only state which has done so and is not an anti-gun state by any means. We do have a very liberal governor and I expect is was at his urging that this happened.

What the more liberal states are doing is creating a lot of nit picky laws that make is difficult to obtain them and or use them. Magazine capacity limitations, certain features can't be on them, things like that. They've also made attempts to heavily tax ammo and the sales themselves or prohibit gun sales within their jurisdictions.

Here what has to happen is someone has to file a lawsuit claiming their 2nd Amendment rights have been violated. It then has to go through a series of courts until it is either settled or reaches the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court in the past has allowed some regulations so long as there is no outright ban but it has gotten more friendly to the 2nd Amendment in recent years. With another pro-gun nominee, this is likely to be solidified and I expect a few attempts will be made to overturn some of the regulations in the more restrictive states.

New Jersey is so bad that a person from Pennsylvania who has a license to carry and has a gun in their purse when they cross the line, if caught they will be arrested and jailed. A woman realized she made a mistake, reported it to a policeman and was immediately arrested and held for quite a long time. Not sure if it was settled yet or not. She was not a criminal by any means but New Jersey made her one. A lot of them come to PA to buy guns but are often refused. PA gun sellers have to know what is legal for NJ citizens to own before they can sell them anything. It's a bit of a mess.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Can individual States really ban what they like?

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Here are some of the restrictions in New Jersey

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...strictions.pdf

To add,
The M1 carbine receiver if stamped M2 is considered a machine gun, even if none of the fully auto parts are used on it.
You know the 'Once a machine gun, Always a machine gun' saying.
Makes me wonder if you'll run into a similar situation if your Gov decides to rule on just the gun make and style........ No matter the modifications done to be compliant.
Compliant........ A word who's meaning is decided by Governments.....

There's absolutely no legal issues at all Clarkie. Cleverly inserted into the act somewhere in the not too distant past was a clause that said, basically and to the point, that the Secretary of State can (no need for any discussion with that statement.....) ban any type of weapon that he considers dangerous or likely contravenes this that and the other. There it is. You pays your (big) money and takes your chance. The niceties of legal definitions and learned opinions don't count.

There it is,
Not even the common courtesy for a reach around................

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

An interesting question. Individual states do all have their own laws regarding firearms. Even inside the individual states some municipalities also have their own laws regarding firearms. Some states like California, New York and New Jersey are pushing the envelope on controlling firearms. At present, I don't think any have attempted an outright ban on semi-auto firearms and with a ruling this past week that explicitly states that semi-automatics are not inherently weapons of war, that isn't going to help their cause. There was a case regarding 3D printed firearms that was just settled last week. The government cannot stop the production of these firearms nor the distribution of the instructions of how to do so. The limitation on them if I have it right is that they cannot be sold once produced. My state, Pennsylvania, for some unknown to me as of yet reason, decided to block the release of the instructions in the state. This is unusual because Pennsylvania is the only state which has done so and is not an anti-gun state by any means. We do have a very liberal governor and I expect is was at his urging that this happened.

What the more liberal states are doing is creating a lot of nit picky laws that make is difficult to obtain them and or use them. Magazine capacity limitations, certain features can't be on them, things like that. They've also made attempts to heavily tax ammo and the sales themselves or prohibit gun sales within their jurisdictions.

Here what has to happen is someone has to file a lawsuit claiming their 2nd Amendment rights have been violated. It then has to go through a series of courts until it is either settled or reaches the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court in the past has allowed some regulations so long as there is no outright ban but it has gotten more friendly to the 2nd Amendment in recent years. With another pro-gun nominee, this is likely to be solidified and I expect a few attempts will be made to overturn some of the regulations in the more restrictive states.

New Jersey is so bad that a person from Pennsylvania who has a license to carry and has a gun in their purse when they cross the line, if caught they will be arrested and jailed. A woman realized she made a mistake, reported it to a policeman and was immediately arrested and held for quite a long time. Not sure if it was settled yet or not. She was not a criminal by any means but New Jersey made her one. A lot of them come to PA to buy guns but are often refused. PA gun sellers have to know what is legal for NJ citizens to own before they can sell them anything. It's a bit of a mess.

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Good grief, what an absolute minefield!

---------- Post added at 05:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by painter777

There it is,
Not even the common courtesy for a reach around................

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:rofl::rofl::thup:

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

There's absolutely no legal issues at all Clarkie. Cleverly inserted into the act somewhere in the not too distant past was a clause that said, basically and to the point, that the Secretary of State can (no need for any discussion with that statement.....) ban any type of weapon that he considers dangerous or likely contravenes this that and the other. There it is. You pays your (big) money and takes your chance. The niceties of legal definitions and learned opinions don't count.

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They wont be happy until there's nothing left Peter ...

To refine my point, if they ban MARS rifles, then they would regard a SP converted MARS as still Sec5 and ban it anyway....

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Good grief, what an absolute minefield!

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It's not as bad as it sounds. Pennsylvania is bordered by six states. I haven't been in New York in at least 5 years. I haven't been in Ohio in over 30 years. New Jersey I average 2-3 trips per year, all in the summer, Maryland about the same and West Virginia maybe once a year. Delaware is the only one I go to on a more regular basis and that's because A) no sales tax and B) a Cabelas is there. The only two that I've been in that I've bought firearms related materials is Maryland and Delaware and neither has any issues selling long guns to out of state individuals. I don't conceal carry so I don't have to worry about crossing state lines. About 30 states have reciprocating carry laws meaning they honor Pennsylvania's carry laws. New York and New Jersey are two that don't, possibly Maryland also, not sure. They are trying to get this passed Federally so no state can prevent someone else from carrying if they have a license.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

My question is this, if D&B convert these to straight pull, wouldn't they still legally speaking, be Sec5 after the changes in classification?

Or......if converted prior to the ban, would they be exempt from that rule and remain under Sec1?

My assumption would be that they would still automatically shift to Sec 5 because it's still effectively and legally the same firearm, reciver, barrel etc.

Unlike the SP L1A1's, Garands etc, that are built from kits with new unported barrels.

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That would also be my understanding of the law as well.

Once Sect 5, always Sect 5 as the saying goes.

Do they not "grandfather" things in the UK?

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

It's not as bad as it sounds. Pennsylvania is bordered by six states. I haven't been in New York in at least 5 years. I haven't been in Ohio in over 30 years. New Jersey I average 2-3 trips per year, all in the summer, Maryland about the same and West Virginia maybe once a year. Delaware is the only one I go to on a more regular basis and that's because A) no sales tax and B) a Cabelas is there. The only two that I've been in that I've bought firearms related materials is Maryland and Delaware and neither has any issues selling long guns to out of state individuals. I don't conceal carry so I don't have to worry about crossing state lines. About 30 states have reciprocating carry laws meaning they honor Pennsylvania's carry laws. New York and New Jersey are two that don't, possibly Maryland also, not sure. They are trying to get this passed Federally so no state can prevent someone else from carrying if they have a license.

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I suppose its such a different system for us here in the UK with effectively one single legal system covering Britain, with some local legislation for Scotland and Northern Ireland. Wales also has its own Parliament, but as far as I am aware follow English law in virtually everything.

There are however some differences, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands for instance, they set their own laws (much to governmental annoyance) and you can still possess Semi Automatic firearms and handguns there.

Also, in Northern Island you can still hold handguns, this caveat was made in the province due to the amount of people who had to hold firearms for personal defence during the troubles, its still in force and probably will be for a good while yet.

Long may their independent spirit and freedoms of these areas flourish too ....:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Do they not "grandfather" things in the UK?

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No, they do not.

John,

As the rifle is still Section one until they change the spec then can't see an issue with them turning them in to SP, but when you look at it regarding price I would think it would be best to get paid out on them and buy a AK type of SP.

I wonder if Southern Gun is offering any service for the lever release 9mm's ? Its a shame regarding them as they are fun to shoot, the Mars rifle probably would of gotten away with its system had it not been for Pete Moores video on You tube.........

We have, in most of Australia, "appearance laws".

A bit like putting a "Spirit of Ecstasy" on a clapped out Austin Princess. By "their" laws, you now own a Rolls Royce.

Bolt-action "tube rifles" are on the forthcoming hit list.

Well if 51 states can't sing off the same songsheet, with all the NRA support and the "Right to Bear Arms" what chance have we in Blighty!!

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

We have, in most of Australia, "appearance laws".

A bit like putting a "Spirit of Ecstasy" on a clapped out Austin Princess. By "their" laws, you now own a Rolls Royce.

Bolt-action "tube rifles" are on the forthcoming hit list.

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Bruce, really sorry your Government is stuffing you again too!

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Well if 51 states can't sing off the same songsheet, with all the NRA support and the "Right to Bear Arms" what chance have we in Blighty!!

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Too true Gil, just wait for the public outrage and horror after the BBC screen their Sec58, lethal antique weapons on our streets exposé on Monday night!

Wave bye bye to the obsolete calibre list, at least all the centre fire pistol calibres in the current list..... At least.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

We have, in most of Australia, "appearance laws".

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Yeah and now NSW have a law that you can get in trouble for offending someone with statistics, even if the statistics are 100% true.