No.32 MKI & MKIIs

Hi All,

I'm a new member to the forum and quite new to historic/vintage rifles having mainly been involved in UK NRA TR and MR disciplines. I'm awaiting the arrival of a No.4 MK2 built by Fultons with a new Criterion Barrel (I missed out on No.4s at school and CCF by a few years so needed to get my own!) and would like to convert to faux (but good) T spec. I have two original No.32 scopes, a MKI and a MKII, I'm keen to use the MKII for the finer adjustments but I want to give the scope a good clean and re-lubricate. I'm not unfamiliar with optical repairs having worked with ex Barr and Stroud man Jim Quigg in Glasgow for a few years (I used to repair Watson microscopes and do reticle repairs on Pecars for the Forestry Commission for him) but I've been stumped with the MKII scope. I can't get the erector cell out. There's a hard metal (possibly sintered) plug which is locking it in place and it seems to have cold welded itself to (I assume) a threaded brass or similar soft metal body inside. This plug is quite brittle but parts of it are firmly bonded to the erector assembly. I've tried to gently heat it using a soldering iron (it won't melt) but I've backed off that route incase I'm doing something wrong. I assume this part can be pushed out if the metal plug is removed. Does anyone have some advice on this? The rest of the scope has come apart nicely but this part is proving troublesome. I'd be happy enough to make a new one, if spares aren't available as I have one of the lathes and lots of thread tooling from Barr and Stroud so I'm not daunted by this. I hope someone can help, many thanks in anticipation. Ron

I've never taken one apart, but I do have Mr. Laidler's No32 scope book (which you don't seem to).

https://www.ds-militarybooks.com/ind...c913vn9afoful2

From my understanding - the "plug" you are trying to remove is a threaded screw....

I should wait a tad and no doubt Mr Laidler will chime in with his expertise to assist you on the dilemma you have, he has been known to have repaired 1 or 2 of the No.32 series...........!

Welcome to milsurps by the way.

The author of the book in the previous replies link?

I'll try and order a copy in any case.

Thanks

I think you mean the "segment, locking, erector" is stuck, It is made of pot metal and has a hole in the top. You should be able to get a small drift punch or jewelers screw driver in the hole to carefully break it loose and lift it out. The serrations on the bottom side engage the grooves on the erector keeping it from shifting under recoil. It may be corroded in place and if that's the case, it may take some more heat to get it out.

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 AM ----------

Definitely get a copy of the booklet from DS Solutions.

Thanks, I have purchased the pamphlet a few moments ago. It is firmly stuck. Do you know if the assembly should then push out?

I don't suppose the Mk 1 scope has serial number 1923 or 3273?
One can live in hope!

The erector will come out after removing the locking segment. I think the REME instrument techs use a plastic or wood mandrel made for the task but I'm not sure. Maybe Peter will chime in.

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Originally Posted by waco16

I don't suppose the Mk 1 scope has serial number 1923 or 3273?
One can live in hope!

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5657, sorry

---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The erector will come out after removing the locking segment. I think the REME instrument techs use a plastic or wood mandrel made for the task but I'm not sure. Maybe Peter will chime in.

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It comes out of the MKI easily enough but is stuck fast in the MK2. I used as much heat as I dared but gave up. it looks to me as if I have to devise a method to thin it down and then hopefully break it up bit by bit. I'd like to know if there are any lenses directly underneath it or are they to either side of this area.

Worth a try - thanks

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Originally Posted by Musgrave

I'm a new member to the forum and quite new to historic/vintage rifles having mainly been involved in UK NRA TR and MR disciplines. I'm awaiting the arrival of a No.4 MK2 built by Fultons with a new Criterion Barrel

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Crikey.....buying a No.4 from Fultons, you're brave!!

Why do you say that?

The segment you have is made from sintered (or compressed powder) alloy - although some are made from brass. There';s two ways you can remove it when it's started to disintegrate as yours has. Gently apply more heat than you'd like to and using a steel rod in the centre hole, just wiggle it about and it'll either come out slowly or probably just disintegrate completely. OR you can heat it and then GENTLY tap the erector cell at both ends using a specially shaped drift and the matching teeth on the erector cell might just cause the segment to lift. But don't necessarily bet on it. If you haven't got the special drift, DON'T go any further because you'll knacker the erector. You will need an old no 42 or 53 to salvage the replacement segment. It's all hand fitting after a looooooong apprenticeship and....... and.......... and..........

Then, when you have gone past the point of no return and beyond your ability - and it's in pieces you put it all into a bag and take it to Fultons or one of the other 'fixers' to get it fixed. How do I know this................

Added a bit later. If your turning skills are up to internally cutting teeth (not a thread incidentally) to enable half segment adjustments to the erector cell then I'd suggest making 50 segments because the original sintered ones are easily broken and hard to obtain. They had been no longer available for several years before the L42/No32 scope was obsolescent

Peter,

Thanks for your reply, I purchased a copy of your book, are the dimensions for the drift tool contained within it?

I'll keep you posted with my progress.

R

Drift..... Not sure but pictorially it's pretty well self explanatory. Must be recessed to clear the ocular end stop-down cone

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

Crikey.....buying a No.4 from Fultons, you're brave!!

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Au contraire.
I asked Fultons to build me a No.4 for SR"b" and they did a stunning job, in fact I was so pleased with the service/quality etc I posted pictures of it on here for everybody to see.

Well the segment was picked out bit by bit and the erector cell is out. I made a simple drift on the lathe and gave it one light tap to dislodge. I'm going to make a cast of the segment and a dental technician friend of mine will make some new ones in his autoclave, zinc seems suitable.

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Originally Posted by Musgrave

Why do you say that?

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Given what they charge for stuff........for one thing.

And 3 of our club members have had poor experience with Fultons, they even left an obstruction in the chamber of one club members Marlin after trying to fix it (which they couldn't)
Another gunsmith fixed for him on recommendation.

They store and look after our club rifles, and our old club No.4 (7.62 conv) was never right and they seemed unable to sort it.

Granted one of our club members has a lovely No.4 that was re-barreled, prepped and regulated by Fultons, and it certainly shoots very well indeed......but that was built by Fultons almost 20 years ago as he used his pistol compo to buy it.

Just thought I'd post a few pics of the No.32 MKII I've been working on. The work included a full strip down (inc getting the erector cell out / stuck segment problem) inc optic cleaning, new horizontal reticle wire. Clean up of many layers of non original paint and some rust. The scope body was then hot dipped blacked (the original finish it would appear). Turrets were brass blacked again and the numbers painted back in. One of the clicker plungers was broken to I made a new one annealed tool steel, it has a similar hardness to the original. The replacement segment is made from Devcon Steel Putty A for the moment, a dental technician will cast me some new ones once he's back from holiday. If PeterL is looking in, what do you think about the alloy for the segments? I was thinking 70/30 Zinc/Tin. Overall it was quite a straight forward process and very enjoyable.

The Devcon aluminum or steel putty is more than sufficient.
The originals were Mazak or Zamak depending where you live and would just self destruct over time.
Just make sure you use a good separating medium. Liquid detergent works well but if you have a dental lab in town beg, borrow or steal a 1/4 oz of DIESEP and you are good for a lifetime.
Before the Devcon sets, pop in a matchstick into the centre and then remove when hard and use a sheet metal screw to remove the segment.
I've made several this way. In a scratch test, the aluminum appears harder than the original ZAMAK

I would disagree very slightly and say that a steel - or an anything else putty mix - is doomed to failure, based on simple physics and inertial maths. Physics and chemistry tells us that the putty is and will always remain just that...., a putty. And Newton tells us about inertia. Alloy segments were a known failure point hence the brass versions were the only ones provided as spares. These were hot pressed over a mandril. So simple to make with a fly press or take from an old No42

Incidentally, to test the fixability of the telescope and especially the erector and segment we had a drop test known as the fastness test. It involved setting the telescope in the layer and firing a couple of rounds with the recoil buffer set to hard. That would sort out all the forthcoming problems. I would liked to have tested a resin segment there. Mind you, as I always say. If you're shooting your rifle on a nice sunny range in 2018, it's one thing. If you're on the advance into Antwerp holding a harrying position overlooking a cross-roads you might want something a tad more reliable

Peter, Not disagreeing about "putty" as such, however Devon Putty A is a two part Epoxy which sets up hard. I mention this as I'm just not sure if you're familiar with it.

I use it as a bedding material in all of my customs and I've never seen it fail under recoil yet, even with 357 H&H Magnum.

However, I will be going down the route of a metal replacement for originality.


R

Oh, yes, I've heard of it. As good as gold for bedding and all that. But alas in shear it is......., what's the word I'm trying to find......? Ah, yes....., found wanting.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Oh, yes, I've heard of it. As good as gold for bedding and all that. But alas in shear it is......., what's the word I'm trying to find......? Ah, yes....., found wanting.

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With a capital “s” ?

That made me chuckle!!!!! Yes, you've got it in one! Don't forget that it is a toothed segment and it's only the teeth that are stopping the inertia/weight of the erector that wants to stay still while the rifle accelerates rearwards. And alloy or steel resins aren't ally or steel...., they're just resins impregnated with ally or steel - or brass etc etc

Added later..... Just as an afterthought, I did strip an old and well used tatty Mk1 several years ago and the segment had obviously crusted away many years before. The owner had inserted in its place a section of steel thread, cut from a nut that matched the 28TPI (or is it 30 or 32TPI?) of the erector pitch. Don't forget that it is not a thread as such but the scope owner didn't realise that so adjusted this bit of internally 'threaded' nut segment so that it sat sort-of neatly in the hole and positively locked the erector. Not perfect - but very nearly I'd say. And it'd certainly been there a long time.

Food for thought and the next best thing to a proper job I'd say

May I ask how do you redo the white numbers on the scope turrets ? What type of paint is used ? Thanks for any help that can be given .

I think the original product was (is?) called 'Kwikfill' (not exactly sure of the spelling). However, white wax crayon, whilst not as hard as the original, makes a reasonable substitute. If it comes out, it's simple enough to just go over it again.

I wish I'd been in on this thread when the OP started it - I was away on holiday - as I have not lots, but certainly a fair few spare locking segments. He could have gladly had a couple. Over the years I've stripped quite a few No42's & 53's & only sometimes have I needed the segment. When not needed they just go into a little tray.......

Interesting post.

I never had a problem getting the little lid off. #20 slide hammer and a machine screw worked every time.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../c9gHj2C-1.jpg

The locking segments were always a total PITA in service life and the replacements came in brass. I wish I'd known DRP had some spare!!!!! It'd have saved us the absolute hassle of inverse turning!

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I think the original product was (is?) called 'Kwikfill' (not exactly sure of the spelling). However, white wax crayon, whilst not as hard as the original, makes a reasonable substitute. If it comes out, it's simple enough to just go over it again.

I wish I'd been in on this thread when the OP started it - I was away on holiday - as I have not lots, but certainly a fair few spare locking segments. He could have gladly had a couple. Over the years I've stripped quite a few No42's & 53's & only sometimes have I needed the segment. When not needed they just go into a little tray.......

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Is it worth it to pickup a No. 53 or a No..42 to use it for parts to repair a No.1 or the No.II scopes .What parts will interchange ?

There is a looooooong thread, several threads in fact, on the interchangeability between the parts on the forum. So I won't repeat them again.

Beautiful work Musgrave!

Yes, excellent results - cosmetically and optically!

Yes, nice job but while I'm not looking at the grat and crosswire in the flesh, the tip of the grat looks either a bit rounded OR lop sided. Difficult to spin up and it always takes me 2 or 3 goes to get it right. Or did while I was fixing them

Musgrave nice No32 refurbishment and in keeping with the original standards! Just out of interest what did you use to chemically black the brass?

I have used Birchwood Casey Brass Black with very good results . Four To five applications produce a nice dark black color on brass .