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1945:At 8:15 am today 73 years ago, a US B-29 dropped a single bomb over Hiroshima, and the first atomic weapon used in warfare detonated with a 13-kiloton blast, destroying nearly 5 square miles of the Japanese city.
Over 70,000 died instantly, and tens of thousands will later perish from injury and sickness.
Always been controversy over Truman's decision to drop those bombs I have just watched a full length doco on the development and dropping of those devices I think his decision was based largely on the horrendous losses suffered by the U.S and other combatants taking back the island's (MacArthur got his way with Roosevelt for that campaign) they put losses of up to 2 million men to take Japan.
Right or wrong what ever you believe in it ended the war far quicker than the alternative sadly the affects of the radiation are still manifesting itself even today 0000's dieing from drinking the black rain which was really moisture laden dirt taken up to the upper atmosphere by the blast then coming back to earth.
Personally it had to be done I am quite sure the decision was not taken lightly even if Trinity did not set fire to the atmosphere.
As a side note Truman was going to drop his bomb at the conference which Stalin was attending as Truman had just gotten confirmation the bomb was a success sad thing is such was "Uncle Joe's" spy network Stalin already knew about the successful detonation of the worlds first Atomic Bomb......
Of course it was done twice on Japanese soil....................sadly I have to agree, they instantly surrended, and that one act saved thousands of American/British and Commonwealth lives in so doing, which would have been lost needlessly had it continued.
It was the sheer "Unknown" that worried the boffins. Noone really knew what would happen and they certainly never expected the fall out to kill more people than the actual strikes!!
The Australian government anticipated the war with Japan continuing to or through 1948.
Paul,
There is only so much Sushi one man can eat, THANK GOD it came to and end.
For some in distant jungles and islands they fought on not knowing the war was at an end.
What a bummer, being shot by a Jap years after it had ended :surrender:
I have the book The Emperors Last Soldier have yet to read it think his name was Onada there were 3 of them he being the last survivor they had to get his commanding officer from WWII to hail him to come out of the jungle to surrender, gosh he would have got a hell of a back pay!!!!!!!!
Yes there was a true story of a Jap being found in the Borneo jungle some years back, all his comrades had since died. He too had to be convinced it was all over and mobile phones had taken the place of flags!!
On this day in 1945 I was a Radarman 3/c on a “picket” cruiser. We had just completed practice firing on the Island of Culebra and were enroute to the Panama Canal to join the fleet for the invasion of Japan. During the Okinawa campaign , the USN established a radar picket line between Okinawa and Japan to ward off Kamikazes. The line as formed by destroyers. At Okinawa the picket destroyers were lasting about 78 minutes. The plan for the Japanese invasion was to replace the picket destroyers with light cruisers. I do know whether it was thought that the light cruisers would last longer or if the USN was running out of destroyers. I, for one, applaud the use on the nukes. Considering the high casualty rate expected and the typhoon that occurred during the time of the scheduled invasion, it was fortunate that it never occurred.
Col. Paul Tibbits and POTUS Harry Truman have my eternal gratitude.
IMHO
FWIW
Gil,
I well remember reading in the newspaper or hearing on the news of seemingly dozens of Japanese soldiers being sighted or 'captured' back in the 1950s and very early 1960s. I remember that many of them were in the Philippines and all had their rifles, ammo and what remained of their kit ready to fight to the death. From the reports, most were sighted whilst stealing food or crops from native farms, or came out voluntarily because of illness or injury (including being wounded trying to avoid capture).
What struck me then as a teenager was two things; the total dedication they had to duty and emperor, and that they wasted a part of their lives for nothing, not knowing or believing the war was over. As I got into my teens and understood more, I realised that the former, their dedication, was absolutely total - that for them, there was no option duty to death. I also understood that Truman (and Roosevelt before him) given the belief that the entire Japanese nation shared that kind of Bushido mentality, with the Okinawa campaign to support that belief, had no option but to use the bombs and end the war then and there.
Your words here mean tons because you're about our only member that was there. Those of us that soldiered followed your footsteps...you sir...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosine26
Hi BAR
Lest you think that I am unfamiliar with nukes, let me assure you that, as an AOB (aircraft Observer, Bombardment) I flew in nuclear capable B47’s with SAC (Strategic Air Command) during the Cold War. I was well versed in nuclear weapons and their use and capability.
As I have indicated previously, nuclear weapons are a Pandora’s Box (probably best left unopened). However I am glad that, if it had to be opened, better the US than either Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
IMHO
FWIW
In 1945, the U.S. military expected up to 1 million casualties in the invasion of Japan, so the services stocked up on Purple Hearts. As late as 1985, the Defense Logistics Agency still had about 120,000 Purple Heart sets dating back to World War II. These expectations were certainly not unreasonable, given the ferocity of the battles on Okinawa. Another dimension were suicides by Japanese civilians, notably on Saipan and Okinawa, convinced by propaganda the Americans would rape and slaughter them. Even with the second bomb, there were still plenty of military fanatics who refused to surrender, enough they they would go so far as to attempt a coup against the Emperor of Japan to prevent his surrender speech from being broadcast. One can only imagine how much longer the war would have gone on had they succeeded. Archival records show a third bomb was under assembly at Tinian in the Mariana Islands where the Enola Gay and Bockscar had flown from, with the main plutonium core about to be shipped from the U.S. Fortunately, it was not needed.
Kyujo incident
Paul Tibbets - Wikipedia
Was wondering last week if Capt. Tibbets was related to the missing girl in Iowa. Spelled different though.
RIP Paul Tibbets and all those brave souls who did what unfortunately had to be done and prayers for the safe return of Mollie Tibbetts.
Paul S remember they have had hundreds & hundreds of years with feuding war lords gaining control of Japan with the code of the Samurai and later the Bushido code total dedication to their lord & master or emperor where surrender was not an option the beliefs put into the civilian minds that the emperor was a demi-god and the Americans would eat them spurred the populace to a frenzy of dedication to defend till the death.
I mean they were training people to strap explosives on their backs to dive under US tanks and then detonating the charge!
Mate, My dad served in the islands, every adult male (and some of the women) his age I knew, had served and fought in some nation's (UK, US, or Commonwealth, a couple of Poles, and a few from Italy and Germany) armed forces and every theatre of war.
There were blokes I knew growing up who had been captured by the Japanese. Not one of them who had been shipped to Japan as slave labour expected to survive the war. They knew they would be butchered or used as human shields if the home islands were invaded. They knew, and made it clear to us growing up, that every Japanese man, woman and child would die defending the emperor - there would be no surrender, but for the bomb. There was a very real reason that the Allies required all Japanese aircraft have their propellers removed, etc before the US fleet sailed into Tokyo harbour for the surrender of Japan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
My boarding school mathematics teacher hated the Japs. He had been taken prisoner in Burma. There were no fingernails left on the six fingers they didn’t cut off.
Read “With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa” by E.B. Sledge and you will see why it was necessary to drop the A-bombs.
The "unecessary" cruelty they inflicted on their adverseries, especially when they were captured was shameful under the Geneva Convention. The very same Convention which meant nothing to them at all.
How the Germans could ever side with them heaven knows.
Every ex serviceman that was ever taken by the Japs and incarserated, hated them with a vengeance and NEVER bought anything knowingly that was Japanese, and would cross the road to be away from them if they saw any.
I know that appears extreme but thats how it scarred them for life.
The Germans were so close to developing a similar bomb under Werner Von Braun so thank God for our level headed top teir at the time for deciding to drop it when they did!!
Yes how close they were....................."Broadsword calling Danny Boy" Broadsword Calling Danny Boy" Over..........thank God for the Norwegian Resistance Movement and the Intel they captured, Where Eagles Dare...............:surrender:
Broadsword calling Danny Boy part 2 - YouTube
Said many times on this forum. When I was in Australia (and NZ too), all/most of the blokes who worked in our camps, the boilermen, groundsmen, maintenance workers, firemen, storemen etc etc....., you know the sort of blokes, were ex POW's and had blazer badges with the FEPOW logo. Being a singlie (a single bloke) and living in, I got to know those that worked in our workshops. What they used to say about them was horrendous beyond words. The general Australian and NZ population of the mid 60's was one of total hatred.
One day I'll mention the tree planting ceremony..............
Maybe Cinders can remind me about an incident with Japanese POW's at Cowra and how they repaid the kindness shown to them.
This one Peter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Cowra breakout, 1944 - Fact sheet 198 – National Archives of Australia, Australian Government
The night of a 1000 suicides, as a nation and the commonwealth as a whole probably regarded once you were a prisoner of war we obeyed the Geneva convention and whilst they were not pampered it was better treatment the Japs gave to any of our troops or any other allied soldiers.
There is a town about 150 kliks from where I live and they have a memorial there for those that fell in the Sandakan death march I have been there and its a humbling experience for the U.S troops it was the Bataan Death March I have read the latter but not the Sandakan yet! (Read Knights Of Bushido By Lord Russell of Liverpool I think its just shocking)
The Japanese code was you had no rite to life if you surrendered and as they were not a signatory to the Geneva convention they were not bound by it not that it would have stopped them from the inhumanity they directed to not only soldiers but the nurses and civilians as well.
We were so very lucky our militia held the Japs the first time the Japs had been stopped in jungle fighting in N.G or the world for that matter whilst the regular A.I.F was in Africa, then we had U.S troops come to our side to finish the job and repel them as Australia was the ideal place for MacArthur's long term plan to retake the islands.
I don't know much of what other countries have in the way of remembering their fallen but here there are monuments just about everywhere, about an hour from the Sandakan memorial in Boyup (Boy-up) Brook there is a very small place with about 3-4 old farm style houses nothing else and then as you pass through it there on the right side of the road is a monument for our fallen with names on it.
I have had to go through there just after Anzac Day heading to Albany with the crane and there were wreaths laid by those there no doubt some relatives may still live in the area, also we are just a small town as well but have a fairly good sized monument for all wars and a nice RSL Hall (Small) I do like wearing my dads medals and think of him and all the past, present & future soldiers from the world who go away to carry the fight to oppressors.
I thought the George Cross was awarded to reserve troops Syme & Mould two Australian RNVR aerial mine disposal officers could only get the George Cross (Mould got the Bar to it) as they did not face the enemy, I would have though Jones & Hardy were facing the enemy even POW's why the George Cross & not the DSO or DCM! Anyway it is part of our history now.
Second bite of the cherry (blossom): 9th of August is Nagasaki Day.
Closely followed by VJ Day on the 15th.
And it has all been world-wide sweetness and light ever since............
No sir, perhaps you misunderstand me, we follow you. We came after and follow in your footsteps. You went ahead of us, I served 35 years as an infantryman. Your words are gospel because you had more to lose if the bombs hadn't been dropped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosine26
Survivors called it PIKADON ~ Light then Thunder.
Another good read for all you book worms is "The Day The Bomb Fell" nothing to do with Japan in WWII but a scary ride on the US having wayward Nuclear bombs drop out of aircraft when they weren't supposed to one I think was on US soil with 4 of the 5 fail safes failing leaving one hanging there or 1 step away from a detonation....interesting read.
Recently I just watched a doco on a Titan Missile silo fire in the 80's now that was scary moment the explosions of all the fuel going up not the warhead it blew the 700 tonne silo hatch clean off the warhead landing outside the silo had the bomb detonated then the loss of life would have been horrendous as it was @50 died.
1980 Damascus Titan missile explosion - Wikipedia
Chilling PBS Doc Recounts The Nuclear Accident That Nearly Destroyed A
Hi BAR
You did not offend me. I just wanted people to know that I was very familiar with nukes. Gen. LeMay was CIC of SAC when I flew. It was said when you were in SAC "Give your heart to God because you A$$ belonged to LeMay.
FWIW
Yes sir, we've discussed some of your flying time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosine26
The war in the pacific was a war of annihilation with little or no quarter being given. The mounting causalities from the Okinawa and Iwo Jima was great concern to the US leadership and we had not invaded the home island yet. Most of the military folks who were scheduled to invade the home islands knew there was going to mass causalities from the invasion. I have talk to several veterans who told me they cried when the bombs dropped and the Japanese surrendered. They did not cry for the lost of the Japanese but the fact they knew they would survive the war. Many years ago I was a government security inspector and had several occasions to visit the Grumman Aircraft Company on Long Island. Many of the workers were former navy aviation veterans from the Pacific War. Local management would hang a flag of a foreign country whose aircraft they were building at the time. The workers almost riot when the local management tried to hang a Japanese flag in the plant ceiling for a Japanese aircraft contract. Many had long and bitter memories of friends lost in the Pacific.
I don't think that enough people understood that Truman really had no choice. By August 1945, there was no Imperial Japanese Navy... it had been sunk. There was no Air Force... it had been shot down and the pilots had been killed. What was left of the Japanese Army was mostly stuck in China. The USAAC had destroyed every industrial site, and all of the larger cities. Tokyo was effectively razed. We (US) demanded the Japanese to surrender unconditionally, they told us to go pound sand... so we dropped the first Bomb on Hiroshima. A day later we demanded surrender again, or another Bomb, and they again refused... the Emperor and the military leadership were United. Then we dropped the Bomb on Nagasaki. At this point, the Emperor was ready to surrender, having realized that they couldn't kill Americans any more, and the only thing they could control was whether or not more Japanese would die. The military still refused, considering surrender as shameful. The Emperor insisted, the military leaders asked for time to consider... and then launched a nighttime coup attempt to depose the Emperor and continue the war. A US combat air patrol happened to be flying above Tokyo looking for targets of opportunity when they spotted the convoy of coup attempters on their way to the palace by the headlights, and destroyed it... inadvertently preventing the coup. Japan surrendered in the next few days. Good thing, too, because we were out of Bombs. Shortly after the war we captured a Japanese sub with a hangar installed on the hull with a seaplane inside... equipped with a cobalt-based dirty bomb intended for L.A. that would have rendered it uninhabitable for decades if not centuries. The Japs had gotten this material from the Nazis by U-boat late in the war.
In short, nuking Japan likely was the best outcome for them and us. Extrapolating from Okinawa, minimum US casualties would have been around 1M, with 5X the losses for Japan. And how ugly would it have gotten if the Japs had managed to bomb L.A. with a dirty bomb, killing hundreds of thousands? No enemy persons should ever be valued more than our own people, civilians or military. Truman made the right decision.
That's intriguing! I would like to read more about that but a few different Google searches turned up fruitless.Quote:
Originally Posted by obijohnkenobe
Might you have a link to a source?
They were trying but not in the race.
"On May 19, 1945, a Nazi submarine was captured and discovered to be delivering 1,200 pounds of uranium oxide to the Japanese military. The vessel was dispatched for Japan shortly after Adolf Hitler committed suicide, a time when the Germans wanted to dispose of their large amounts of uranium. Two Japanese officers were aboard the submarine; both committed suicide upon being captured."
Full story in link;
New evidence of Japan's effort to build atom bomb at the end of WWII
Saw a lot about that. Also some interesting stuff!
But couldn't find even a scent of a Cobalt based dirty bomb.
Slightly off-track..... When did it change from being the Imperial War Graves Commission (IWGC) to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission? I always remember it as the IWGC. Even further aside, just next to our big workshops in Singapore, in the 25 Coy (or Squadron) area was a small IWGC office that looked after the graves at Pasir Panjang and Ulu Pandan military cemeteries plus the main Kranji cemetery. I think that all of the bodies from the different churches and areas were eventually moved to Kranji. The graves area of the murdered medics and nurses at the BMH, the big hospital at Alexandra were not disturbed for some reason. At 25 Coy one of the RCT drivers there was Dixie Dean and he had an Austin Commercial 1 tonner that was gleaming - and I mean gleaming - polished Khaki. Although the Austin 1 tonner was an Army truck, it was reserved for use by the IWGC to collect dug up/recovered bodies. You knew which it was because it was the only truck in the Far East that had a low canopy over the rear body. The rest were wire meshed.
In Malaya I seem to recall that most of the little Christian churches had a small sectioned-off IWGC area plus a few wartime ones at BMH Kinrara near the Central Malaya Sub District HQ. How do I remember this guff.........
It was part of your life...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Peter,
Absolutely right all Military cemeteries are now one and moved to Kranji CWGC Cemetery, Singapore, where I was commemorating the two 2 PARA lads killed at the Battle of Plaman Mapu two years ago.
As always the CWGC have done a very moving job ther bringing all the graves together in one place on a hill overlooking the harbour. I know the Cemetery Supervisor there and his team of 12 workers, amazing what they do in that intense heat on a daily basis. He is shown on the left of the attached photo. I am taking the pics.
In answer to your specific question the Imperial War Graves Commission (IWGC) was founded by a Royal Charter in May 1917 to provide for remembrance in perpetuity as graves massed during WW1.
However, in March of 1960, as Britain withdrew from its massive Empire, its name was changed to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC)
Second photo me standing with the PARA RHQ Wreath with Lt General James Bashall ex 2 PARA CO
Google 'Japanese submarine dirty bomb' to see a list of related stories. IIRC there was a book on this that I read in the last decade or two... going through my Amazon purchases now... that told this story, and how the Japanese were very close to doing this before the war ended.
The submarine I-52, perhaps? Looks like it was supposed to receive a cargo of Uraniam Dioxide from Germany. But it never made it that far and the use hasn’t been confirmed. So either way that certainly wasn’t sunk with a dirty bomb bound for anywhere in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by obijohnkenobe
Don’t misread me, I want your telling of it to be true (it has a really intriguing “what if” factor) but I just can’t find any evidence of it.
I remember reading that the Japanese used submarine borne float planes circa 1942-43 for a raiding operation in the Central Pacific (Hawaii possibly?). The submarines involved had a hanger built onto the aft deck as memory serves.
I think the book I may have read that in was And We Were There.
That said, one would think that IF the Japanese had planned using a rudimentary 'dirty bomb' of some sort that they could have used the more easily deployed balloon system they used to drop incendiary bombs on the Pacific Northwest.
They did fly balloons towards the USA on the jet stream quite the ingenious plan which resulted in some deaths on the US's mainland but about as useful as an ashtray on a motor bike.
A better plan would have been to have Anthrax or Botulism as a payload and disperse it into the atmosphere at lower level to contaminate the land, air and the water.
Fu-Go balloon bomb - Wikipedia
Thank God they didn't have access to them, as I think with their mentality they might have used them!!
Cinders, thanks Mate for the wiki link. I didn't know that the balloons actually got as far east in the USA as Kansas. That is significant.
Gil, I'm with you - Thank God they didn't. I'm surprised they didn't since the Japanese had been using POWs as human guinea pigs at their bio-chemical warfare lab in Manchuria.
Paul,
I respect them as a nation, but they have always been to anal for me. If you have been as many times as I have, you will understand what I mean.
Everything has to be so "regimented and to the exact time" even their trains. The last time I was there they "profusely" apoligised for being 2 seconds late on the platform, where the train doors stop exactly on the marks.
So in short, I think it was an absolute miracle, we in the west did not find ourselves at the end of one of their surprises!! which could have meant surrender :surrender: