Gunsmithing/Armouring Apprenticeship

If this kinda thread is not ok feel free to move it or delete it all together.

So, I've decided I want to be an armourer/gunsmith here in australia, the recquirements for this being about legislation understanding, facilities to undertake this work, and finally the skills to do it. This last part seems a little hazy for applying for an armourer's licence in that it really just asks that you have references from already qualified armourers/gunsmiths as guarantees for your skills and knowledge.

Now I muck around with guns as it is, but being able to really be an armourer with knowledge of all the tools and machinery for armouring work does not seem like something I could reasonably do on my own. I know I could take a fitting and turning apprenticeship or become an engineer but both are not 100% direct to being an armourer or gunsmith.

So that brings me to my question: Are there any armourers or gunsmiths in Australia who would take on an apprentice, or alternatively does anyone here have better advice for what I should do?

Cheers.

At the ripe old age of 20, my strong advice for you in Australia would be to join up, and use the whole sheebang behind the Military wheels to learn your stockin trade first.
As those on here, some who live or have served in Australia doing exactly what you propose will tell you, is do it properly and earn your trade and respect in that way. In umteen years time you can come out and set up your own business, but it is that very respect you have to earn somewhere to be able to do that IMHO, otherwise it will be a lost leader.
The best armourers and gunsmiths all stemmed from the Military, because the training is priceless!!

I was under the impression that modern armouring would be much more replacing parts than what you need in old milurps: Stocking, metallurgy, and whatnot. Also, despite being quite young I've got health issues that the army would refuse me for in a blink.

OK..................in that case my advice is option two.
Your local technical college may or may not, dependant where you live in Oz run courses, but those are normally only found in the big cities.
Option two would be to find a gunsmithing weapons maker, or even a repair shop in a local gunshop to learn your trade, from the "resident" expert in house.
Good luck and let us know how you faired.
Peter Laidler and others who know OZ better than I may come on to offer their vast knowledge too ;)

Difference between a gunsmith and an armourer. Decide which one. Usually an armourer is from about 13mm and larger cartridges, large automatic guns, bombs, mortars, etc.

Basic gunsmithing skills out of a book or manuals. Experience doesn't come from books. However, if no nearby training institution provides training, a fitter and turner apprenticeship provides skills and experience of repairing and making small and medium metal parts, welding, etc.

Stockmaking is another specialised woodworking skill

Approach your local gun clubs to find out who in the area does their firearms, learn from them while you are finding the right instructor/teacher/college/etc. Be willing to move to where the training is.

"...armourer/gunsmith..." That's two very different things. Military weapons techs(armourers) are not gunsmiths. Nor are they trained as such. Replacing parts is exactly what they do. And only on current issue kit. No stock work, no metallurgy, trigger work or any of the stuff a smithy does. Not much metallurgy done by smithies either though.
"...Basic gunsmithing skills out of a book or manuals...." You cannot learn to do it by just reading books or watching videos. Especially any of 'em on YouTube or by mail order videos.
Being where you are is probably your biggest obstacle. Your government, like ours in Canada, doesn't want smithies. The chances of finding a smithy who will take on an apprentice with no experience are slim. Highly unlikely there are any entry level jobs either.
"...reasonably do on my own..." Don't know about Australia, but our Community Colleges run(or did) entry level machining courses. Assumes there is such a thing as a Community College there too. All smithies are machinists. Not all machinists are smithies though. That'd be a start at least.
"...become an engineer..." Mechanical engineer. Four year university degree with lots of math. And about $35,234.49AUD per annum.

A position as a military armourer will give you a basic understanding of the operations and procedures involved, even though the modern armourers are essentially 'parts changers'. Fitting and turning is a good background, although I believe you would be better going to a smaller company that still does conventional machining, rather than a big outfit that is heavily into CNC work. Hand skills are difficult to teach unless the person already has a natural ability in that area. Good books are very useful (although a lot of them are coffee table rubbish). One of your best 'tools' is to buy up guns with minor problems, repair them and on-sell them. This gives you experience and some income. The very best 'tool' is your own level of enthusiasm and determination. Finally, don't expect to get rich! You can have a successful and fulfilling career that will give you a good standard of living, but if you want to make money then go get a good job as an engineering tradesman!

In my experience, Military 'gun-plumbing' is a whole different thing.

More like parts-swapping with lots of paperwork.

It has been a LONG time since armourers hand-fitted anything, let alone worked with wooden furniture, apart from the odd M-79 or similar.

Also note that Fitter-Armourers are also responsible for non-shooty stuff like small engines (generators etc), assisting the vehicle mechanics when it comes to metalsmithing , welding etc., building barbecues for various messes and so forth.

Furthermore, last time I looked, "gunsmith' is not a recognized trade in Australia, thus there are no effective apprenticeships. This is "government policy".

If you want to follow your heart into the biz, save up and get yourself to one of the "Gunsmithing Institutes" in the US and do it properly. If you speak fluent German, and have a fat wallet, there are some courses / apprenticeships there.

The "good-old-days" in Australia, when a young bloke could learn a lot by tinkering with random old guns, acquired without paperwork from friends and relative, have long gone.

The handful of "proper" gunsmiths in Oz are ALL foreign trained. Because they can do pretty much anything, they also have massive work backlogs, despite their hefty fees.

Gil I'm not sure if there are any unis here that run anything to do with gunsmithing but I could always look around, or maybe take up some kind of entry mechanical engineering thing. I've already tried a full engineering degree but failed, but maybe something a little less in your face I could do. Not too many gunshops over here seem to offer repairs, but there are armourers around.

Daan, yeah I alternate between terms because I kind of want to do both, but in Australia armouring is the only one that is really recognised anymore, and hardly. Stock making would be handy but again not sure if that is a recognised trade. Gun clubs in my area are about the last place I would go to for help.

My government wants nothing to do with guns Sunray, and yeah you're right with all of that. Perhaps if was a tad older with more experience, but the dream of just being an apprentice to a practiced armourer when you're young... Doesn't seem possible anymore.

Woodsy, the parts-changing is what I was thinking about too, which is not what I wanted. I already get old beaten up guns and repair them but sometimes its a bit more than I can bit off, or the materials and tools to do it properly are very scarce and tool making requires even more work with knowledge I don't yet have. I don't want to get rich, I just like guns.

Bruce, I was under the impression that only India still had any kind of institution for gunsmithing. US doesn't sound too bad, but German is a bit extreme. At least the programs are still out there and not completely forgotten yet.

Thanks so far everyone for the insight.

I know we in SA still have that as a trade, so come over here, learn and go back. We also still have many gunsmith workshops and will probably have them for some time still. They aren't parts changers, real gunsmiths willing to build anything within your price range.

A tool and die maker specialises in making small metal parts, in fact anything that needs accurate detailed work, that will fit in well with gunsmithing. I think fitter and turner is the larger/coarser version.

Stock making is specialised because of the differences in people ergonomics, wood types, firearm characteristics, type of shooting, etc. We have many of those in SA too, but I don't know if that is a trade on its own.

Now that is quite handy to know Daan. Do you mean SA as in South Australia, or South Africa? From reading the Modern Gunsmith on here I've gotten to appreciate my tools a bit more and come to understand the need for specialised tools and even more so the need to be able to make your own. Ultimately maybe if I could make up a program of a few different courses or trades that all come into armouring then I could do them at the same time as simply repairing old guns and taking on projects to expand my knowledge.

As long as you are patient with anything mechanical and take it apart memorising the methodical sequence you did that, and find parts that need replacing or not as the case may be, and reassemble it, you have taken the first steps to learning about firearms.

However, many parts involved in weapons have tolerances built into them as they are fired and tested, this area is one where you need to spend time with an armourer/technician to teach you that specialism, using technical drawings and all at your disposal to rebuild it correctly and then have the bottle to test it yourself!!

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Originally Posted by nijalninja

Now that is quite handy to know Daan. Do you mean SA as in South Australia, or South Africa? From reading the Modern Gunsmith on here I've gotten to appreciate my tools a bit more and come to understand the need for specialised tools and even more so the need to be able to make your own. Ultimately maybe if I could make up a program of a few different courses or trades that all come into armouring then I could do them at the same time as simply repairing old guns and taking on projects to expand my knowledge.

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South Africa.

Gil, I seem to have a lot more patience with guns that anything else mechanical. Cars drive me up the wall. The tolerances and all that make sense in most cases to me after I study them long enough, but I'm not sure where to find technical drawings and whatnot for them. I suppose a certain few will be on here, otherwise I'll have to go get Skennerton's Small Arms books on them I suppose.

Cheers MSW2.

The advent of the digital camera has been a boon to noting assembly and disassembly.

You can then upload the entire sequence, with detailed text notes for future reference, into a computer document. Also a good record at completion of a repair etc., in case the customer has a subsequent "oops" moment and tries to lumber you with it.

MSW2,
Good luck to you then cobber, you are half way there then, let us know how you get on;)

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

MSW2,
Good luck to you then cobber, you are half way there then, let us know how you get on;)

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If things keep going like they do here now I might have to give up the half for a fresh start with my family in a country with less of a commie bent ;)

Hi Nijalninja, it would be hard to pickup a decent set of skills without some trade training. And either way is a long road. IMO you'd be best served to do a metal trade like fitting and turning or toolmaking, and continue to pursue your interest and pursue your projects. The formal trade training will give you the basis of the skills and experience necessary to apply to your firearms interest. It will put you in command of the tools of the trade so to speak, and furthermore will provide you with income, and justification for the expense of the many of the tools and pieces of equipment you will absolutely need.
You will find people who will help you along the way, but they don't seem to come out of the woodwork until your b###s deep in it.
It may seem like a long way round, but in reality it's the way it happens in Australia, and a 4 year trade in anything here means you'll pretty well never be looking for job. I think in the last 20 odd years I have been hard up for work for about 1 week... And I was probably drunk that week!
Mind you, 14 months at one of the full time Gunsmithing Colleges in the US would be pretty sweet if you could come up with the 14 months and 70 odd grand for fees and to keep yourself.

Hey Tbone, I reckon you would have the most relevant knowledge here being so relatively close to me. I've muddled with the tools I already have to do basic things but I know that is nowhere near enough and on my own it would take a lot of screw ups and frustration to really understand everything. I do actually have friends qualified in the trade but they are busy enough I don't want to bother them with all my queries.

I've been to a fancy uni (Australian one) before and can't say I ever want to experience anything like that ever again, but for the sake of gunsmithing I reckon it would be something special. That being said I'm dreaming if I think I can pay that kind of money off. I'm definitely thinking a trade would be about the best way to go about it. I might try some smaller qualifications, like a cert III, in machining and cabinet making to get a taste for it. You don't want an apprentice now do you Tbone? :P

Like others have said, Armourer and Gunsmith are two very different trades, in the UK there are very few true Gunsmiths left, I know an Armourer who was doing a Gunsmith apprenticeship with a well known Birmingham Company until they fired him.......... he was half way though and loved it, although they tackle every part of the trade it does get split down the line as you end up specializing in one particular area, his was woodwork or thats were he was heading, its the way the trade has panned out now even then its split further engraving, polishing, finishing etc.

An Armourer now is just a parts changer, there are a few fixes here and there but its mainly new for old, the days of range testing went a long time ago too.......... The paper trail associated with all repairs, Weapons, vehicles etc has or is becoming a thing of the past.........Computers are the new paperwork (if you can find one to use) in fact Armourers are becoming a thing of the past in the Resreves, also other trades are becoming less and the Government are keen to offer contracts to to civilian companies to do the work in the future..........

Personally I'd look around for a trade, myself I'm a Fitter & Turner by trade, although I spent the last year loathing my apprenticeship and couldn't wait to go away to Sea (Merchant Navy) I look back now and have to say it was the best thing I ever did and the training in the first year was the best on offer anywhere in NorthWest (UK), it stood me in good stead for the Merchant Navy and the training has been invaluable at times.

An instance I always remember is in Hawaii having the ships steering gear in bits and chasing a battered thread on a eight inch diameter, eight foot Hydraulic ram with minimal files to hand and under the spotlight of a lamp.......( it was like a scene from an old War film) not everyones cup of tea, but after spending over six months of filing and scraping in an Apprenticeship it comes quite natural.

It was a hell of a repair, the piston internal thread had to be chased too, that was left to a mate who was a magician on a lathe, after many hours he appeared with the piston and I'd just finished removing the battered part of the thread which was about 1/2 " and beyond repair ......... there was a silence as he passed me the piston and the, Old man, Chief and Second watched over as I screwed it on the ram.... it sailed on without any hesitation.

That particular repair saved the company thousands.........but probably a million or so in the bigger picture as we sailed on time and loaded our cargo as planned.

There have been plenty of other times I use the skills I learnt but have to admit even now with them skills most work on a ship gets done by shore side gangs as we don't have enough time or the staff, its a shame really as the youngsters don't get the opportunity to do the repairs and gain the skills.

Although I'm an RFD (Registered Firearms Dealer) I don't do as much as I used to regarding firearms repairs it was the basis of me getting registered.(I guess there is only so many Ruger 10/22 barrels you can cut down and re thread), plenty of engineering though and have just had to admit to defeat regarding a run of small parts for a forum member here, although it has been a slow process with delays that were unexpected its the time it takes to complete one part, a CNC machine would make small work of it, but running a 60 year old slow lathe you need the patience of a saint.

I'm spending more time now making or repairing Old Classic bike parts than any kind of "Gunsmithing" the problem with Firearm repairs is the end user......... you can re barrel a rifle and have it proofed then sign it over to the owner and this is were the problems arise..........

Some hand loaders can become obsessive regarding max pressure and wanting to fill a case to the brim to get an old rifle to do what a modern F class rifle will do........... and when it goes bang, who do they look at straight away................. the guy who fixed it.

I once looked at the Gunsmith trade when I was a 15 year old, even the Armourer and other trades as Gil pointed out with the Army, but my skills never laid in tests so was a few points short to qualify for a Trade, that story has been told before so wont go there, but I'm always grateful for the advice from C/Sgt Carrol.

My advice would be look at Engineering as whole and look at the different disciplines and what training a company will give you, don't skip on the college time and exams too....... one of my regrets but never thought about it as an 18 year old working nights:lol:

Duke, cheers for all the insight. For now I really do love working on guns, not just using them or buying them but doing little repairs and cleaning things up. I've always had an interest in engineering and things mechanical and tried and considered a few things regarding both, ending in either failure or nothing at all. Unfortunately I went to university for engineering and got something way harder than I bargained for, and in the end found I didn't enjoy it either. This is why I am, as you suggest, looking at a trade, but in the end it looks like it will have to a kind of 'work-around' solution of doing something related to armouring and whatnot, but not actually armouring itself other than what I do in my spare time. At least for me I can always ask on here and find books on the subject to get the ideas on what needs to be done, but the hands on and eyes on expertise of a teacher seems to be something I may never really have specifically for firearms. Oh well. I'll figure it out. Cheers.

Wish you luck whichever path you go, Is there any colleges that offer short courses on machining etc, Just remember Any machining skills can be transferred directly to working on Firearms, cutting a chamber is a basic reamer operation etc, One good book you need to invest in is, precision rifle barrel fitting by John L Hinnant, an excellent book based on what he used to give to his students.

There is tafe which has 'certificates' in machining and woodwork, but I will have to look into just how basic or advanced they are. Also I'll definitely try and get that book. Anything I can read regarding armouring and whatnot is much appreciated.