Long Lee Enfield/CLLE WW1 Sniper rifle.

Hi there,
Sorry to be a pest again, but I'm still trying to track down early WW1 1914-1916 type sniper rifles. I recently found a post, in a thread, on the WW1 forum, that mentioned a CLLE or long lee pattern being fixed, I'm sure I also found a picture of this rifle, on " all about Enfields " a N.Z. site, and yet I don't seem to be able to find it again, still looking.
It concerned a long Lee patt'n, shortened to a 28 inch long Barrel, standard but shortened wood, pattern furniture. Although, I was actually looking for the long rifle type, fitted with full length wooden top handguards, I've seen that they were used, and heard mention of them in different texts. using them with Target sights, and or aldis scopes and different mounts.
The rifles in Question, were described as sniper rifles, a pattern that is being held in a large UK armory collection, with Barrel 28 inches in length, with 5 grooves. I'm fairly sure they described as using both Martin or Gibbs style sights, or again with differing mounts and an aldis sight still offset, not overhead. I have pictures now of snipers being both trained with this style of rifle in the field, they look issued, as the soldiers at the range with this rifle, had his scope around his neck, in a leather. If anyone has anymore knowledge of these rifles, could they please drop me a line and point me in the right direction, as I seem to have lost the scent right now.
Also, does anyone out there, have a picture and or measurements of a Common's Patterned scope mount. Which was employed on the long lee, to mount a scopes and provide some adjustment as well, although from what I've seen so far, it's only seems to be changes in elevation, and the scopes shown fitted already had this function as standard, I do have very little info on this mount, other than it was used on the long lee's, around the 1900's. While I'm asking, also any pic's or information of how early APX style mounts were fitted, and worked, as I seem to be missing some details on the front part of the mount . Thanks very much for any help supplied, much appreciated.

Regards Ian

Hi Ian,
I don't know if you've come across these, but there are two Lee Speeds in the National Firearms Collection (ex-Pattern Room Collection) at the Royal Armouries in Leeds, UK. These rifles both have identical mount bases although the lateral adjustment dovetailed wedge is missing from the front base of one of them. The mounts are Rigby, but not of the same pattern of Rigby mounts as found on Promo's recently acquired SMLE sniper rifle. I have a Watts scope & also an Aldis with the correct pattern of rings to fit this system, but the spacing of the rings on both of my scopes is slightly different to the spacing of the bases on the two rifles in the NFC. I suspect mine may be off SMLE's. I travelled up to the Armouries about six weeks ago & met the very helpful curator of firearms, Jonathan Ferguson, with whom I inspected the rifles & 'offered up' the scopes onto them. It might be worth your while contacting him directly if you seek more information. I think I may have some photographs of the rifles saved somewhere.........I'll try & find them. I can't recall if the barrels of these had been shortened slightly or not, I'm afraid, but it's quite possible.

There you go. Unfortunately I don't have any pix of my scopes. They are the same system & would have fitted the rifles but for the slight difference in spacing of the mounts. Note the non-standard iron sights too.

that is an interesting pair of rifles.
it looks like the light timbered one has neither a tang or a cocking piece safety.
is it an optical illusion or are the mounts spaced differently on them?

No, I think you're right Henry, there is a minor difference in the positioning of the bases between the two rifles. In spite of that neither of my scopes would fit either of the rifles, again due to minor dimension differences between the rings.

Hi Roger,
I'm in your debt again, no I haven't seen those two before, very interesting and they sound like the rifles in question. I found this mention of these early war fixed pattern sniper rifles and I was quite surprised to see it, especially with the shortened barrels, I was aware that they were shortened to 25.2 "s later but not sure when. Then the picture of one in NZ, showing the heavy muzzle and shortened LE style wood, but before I got a chance to save the text and the picture, Norton came along and cleaned me up. These rifles if shortened, would fit the Bill and being ex-Armories and everything, would there be a full length and shorter rifle? The mounts are a bit different eh! what kind of fixture grasps the rear Knob, I presume the adjustment is made on the front dovetail for windage and this rear Knob is to allow for some global freedom so as not to overstress the scope ? or am I off on that. Thanks again for sharing these, and helping me out again, I did see the differing front sights too, maybe those are the Target style sights mentioned ?
It's only recently I found these photos of snipers with long lee's in hand, and some details of how long the rifle stayed in service, still being issued. I always thought they could and should be good sniper rifles, nice to finally see some proof. A lot of them here in Canada were used for training. I would like to contact the fellow you mention Rodger, would you recommend dropping him an email or would a letter be best ? Anyhow Thanks again all the best Ian.

Hi Ian,
Just about to go out for a while, but I'll post back to you in more detail later, & will also try & get some photo's of my scopes so that you can see how the mount system works. It seems to originate with Rigby. I also know of one LLE (it's years since I saw it & I wasn't able to get any photo's, but I believe it now resides with a collector in the USA) that was fitted up with a French APX scope. It could have been done after the event, but equally may have been a one-off assembly from the time. It was not shortened in any way so far as I recall.

ATB

Attachment 95422Attachment 95423Attachment 95424Hi Ian,
Here are three pix of the scope rings so you should be able to see how they locate on the bases.

Re Mr Ferguson: If I were you I would send a generic email to The Royal Armouries via their web site asking for him. It will then get passed on to him & he will probably get back to you directly............I think that's how I started the ball rolling.

Hi Roger,
Thank you very much for all the photo's on these rifles, really appreciated. Sorry for not responding sooner, but my laptop has decided to only charge intermitantly and crashes at will, I hope you'll excuse my tardiness. Strange, but I wasn't really expecting the simplest answer in my minds eye, thought about it but did a Na! I don't know why, I guess that's the KISS principal at work there, the same arrangement except in the other plane. Those rings and Brackets certainly look heavy enough to do the job, I'm guessing they're a nice snug fit in both cases when you push them home, so they Zero. I can see why they'd all be a little different fit, it must have been a nightmare for the fitters to get all those parts/surfaces to mate together as precisly as required and align correctly, outstanding really! I like the iron sights on those rifles, an interesting mix of parts and Bit's.

I found my pictures of a CLLE fitted with the French APX system/scope mounted to it, funny thing is in the Book, it's described as being fitted to a smle, but when you really look, you can see that in this instance it's actually on a long lee. I have seen them on Smle's, and found the picture of the Oigee22mm 4x Scope, in the same type mounnt too. My understanding of this setup is, the B.E.F. needed sniper rifles desperatly early war, and turned to the French for help in a hurry, and French Gun makers or Armour's obliged them. I guess they supplied them with selected rifles in early 1915 for conversion, not sure how true this is, but the books I've read this in should be reliable.
I Appreciate all this, and you passing on the Currator's name and details, Thanks very much. I'll get in touch with him, and hopefully discover whatever else I can on these early patt'n snipers, and whether the details were true. Realy did surprise me to see that reported as the 28inch patt'n long Enfield Sniper. If I find it again, I'll let you know. I do know these rifles resides in NZ now, and they have some others there that are similar but a shorter pattern, so it seems logical to me, that they may be there also.
I have a picture of my English Granddad marching off to war with the 1st London's, all issued with CLLE's, and recently found another picture of a regiment being issued with CLLE's in 1916, so they were around for a good while at the front, longer than I understood to begin with. Of course I also have them shown in 1915+ at the sniper Training school.
The first L.E. I ever purchased was a dedicated Target rifle complete with period leather made but plate, and then issued for troop target training. I understood this was there main roll, maybe that was just here, as we had the Ross and so that would change things up. On my Canadian side my Great Uncle and Granddad served together in the 21st Batt CEF and my uncle was a piper, he lost his leg to a German snipers Bullet in 1915, none of them lasted in France to long, interesting when you read how quickly officiers vanished in old accounts.

Best regards Ian

Cheers Ian. When I visited the NFC a couple of months ago, it was left open for me to go back sometime in the Autumn, so I will also be contacting Jonathan at some point to arrange a return trip. Due to a misunderstanding I thought that I was not allowed to take a camera with me so could take no photographs, & I would like to rectify this. (The photo's I posted above were ones I have had saved for a long time, IIRC originally kindly passed on to me by forummer Simon).

I was aware of that one long rifle fitted with the APX scope (although I think it now resides in North America I remember it going through Weller & Dufty's auction several decades ago), but I've never heard of rifles being set up by the French for us early on. However, I wouldn't discount it. We were so desperate for scoped rifles I think we would have accepted almost any help with open arms. It is generally accepted that German scopes were bought up from within the domestic trade & fitted early on, so national pride wasn't an issue! Having said that, if you can find the source from where the information came I'd be very interested to look at it. Similarly, if you have any photo's to show us of any of these 'variant' sniper's rifles I'm sure we would all learn a lot. I'd very much to see anything you can lay your hands on, if possible. This is partly why I have concentrated more on Great War equipment than the WW2 stuff in recent years; the diversity & uncertainty surrounding it all I find a great draw. I am currently buying a Fuess/PPCo transitional scope that is fitted into H&H mounts, which I believe is an early military issue scope. It bears H&H's commercial engraving, but a four digit & single letter serial number, though no broad arrow, yet unusually the range drum bears embossed range graduations (the range markings are proud of the surface), & they run from 1 to 7. Not at all typical, but I somehow doubt that anyone with even an ounce of sense would attempt to take a deer at 700 yds.! And whilst i cannot guarantee it is military issue I think it is unlikely to be anything else.

No worries if you're not in a position to post any additional photo's or info (I note your comments about your current IT problems), but great if you can.

Best, R.

Nice link here for an overview:

Lee-Speed Military Model Commercial Enfield - YouTube

Thanks Gil, nice rifles eh!, I love em. Smle too but the long rifles really float my boat. All the best Ian.

Hi Roger,
Sorry again for the delay, I'm still waiting on a replacement Battery, so I'm going to keep this short in the hope I actually get to post it this time. I'll be only too happy to send copies of what I have to you by hook or by crook. On the French making up rifles for us, I got that info out of one or more of my old Books that I have, so once I find it I'll let you know. I have a picture of a smle with the APX scope conversion, whole rifle, so no confusion there. The CLLE is in Martin Pegler's Sniper rifles Page 33. If you look, as I know you will, you'll notice the little short rear finger guard, with the four rivit's in it, so I doubt that is converted to 25.2"s as it wouldn't make much sense, but the shot is only of the scope area, I'll send you the picture. Some of the other pictures I have are a mix of in circulation, some from books, so from picture sellers, and other from local WW1 Battalion library pictures.
I too find early WW1 the most fascinating period for sniper rifles, I wish I could find scopes as you do, but I haven't even seen one for sale at Canadian gun shows, the exception, two Warner & Swasey scopes but both without mounts, of course a few winch A5's, that I wish I'd purchased now. I have one and as a Target scope it's great for that, but not the best once I've looked thru, compared with my german scopes, re field of view. my Dr Gerard B3 is great for the era I think.
I'm the same on the No4T's, I like them and wish I'd purchased one, back when I should have for around $1200 complete and as new, but I didn't. A guy I thought a lot of had one, and I've built a careful replica that I enjoy, but wouldn't go any further.
The WW1 Large bore scoped rifles, clandestine meetings trading glass for rubber, and making all those other scopes and rifle combo's work, plus the catch up they did was Brillant ! I'll be in touch next week, when this has a new Battery and hopefully I've found all my info to send you. Thanks for all again Roger, Best regards Ian.

Hi Ian,
No worries. Take your time. I shall look forward to seeing anything you can lay your hands on as & when. No hurry.

Best,

R.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Hi Ian,
No worries. Take your time. I shall look forward to seeing anything you can lay your hands on as & when. No hurry.

Best,

R.

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Hi Roger,
I have found my photo's, what do you suggest as a way of getting them to you, some I'm sure you've seen already, hopefully not all. Most are from Canadian Local Battalion museums. I saw one shot this week in which a Canadian sniper is posing with a CLLE so that's another, I hadn't noticed it before. Anyhow You can personal message me with your email and I can send them that way or I can load then onto a disc or stick and pop it in the mail. If you wish I'll have another go at uploading to this site, but for some reason I'm not having any luck tried all suggested and so far no go, plus the images will be reduced size wize considerably.
I have managed to find the second full length shot of a smle with APX scope that I have and fittings, or the old book that contains the reference, it may be in my Binocular stuff too, as some of that goes into quite some detail about Germany trading glass for rubber an our problems with optic's, still looking, my apologies for being so slow.
All the Best, Ian P.S. How did you make out with your fuess scope and mount, well I hope.

Hi Ian,
This all sounds very interesting & I'm sure much of it has escaped me up to now. I'll pm you with my email address. I think that will be the easiest way of going about things. My IT skills are limited to say the least (my kids would express it rather more bluntly!), but over the years I've managed to suss out posting on here - though I've had periods in the past where I have had problems too - so if you would like I can always try & post the photo's you have onto the forum. I think it would probably be a safe bet to say that a lot of forummers would like to see them. Just a thought. Anyway, I'll pm you.

Best.

I would appreciate it, it you could also post the pictures here or give Roger the permission to post them on your behalf, if you don‘t know how to post them here. I would be highly interested in those aswell.

Hi Promo,
I'm slowly shipping Roger my photo's, and He is free to use them as he see's fit, however I feel like a bit of a **** putting it all on Roger, if you want copies and send me you're email address I'll be happy to forward them on. No clue why this laptop doesn't work, it's a Lenovo, my kids brought it for me for Christmas! nice of them but the worst computer I have ever owned, it's nothing but trouble from day one.

Regards Ian

Hi Ian,
Take your time with the pix. I shan't be able to do anything with them for a week anyway as I shall have very limited internet access. However, as you are quite happy for me to upload the photo's to the forum I will do this once I'm back from France. My offspring will be around meantime, but no use expecting any help from them! If Promo is in a position to post any sooner that's fine with me if it is with you.

Best.

For hosting and sharing photos Harlton, ImageShack is probably about the best out there now, but no longer free. VillagePhotos is another one that was free and may still be.

Once your photos are loaded to such a site you can make your albums private or public. If public only people you give the address link to will be able to find the photos.

Anytime you want to share photos you just send the link address.

Helps if you organize your photos well by subject in separate albums, then you can just send the link to the particular album you want to share, not everything you've got.

Ian, I had sent you my e-mail address via PM but never received your pictures. Did you send them?

Attachment 96383Attachment 96384Attachment 96385Attachment 96386Attachment 96387

Sorry, I forgot to do this earlier. These are the pictures that Harlan sent me. I hope people find them of interest.

Captions (reproduced verbatim):

48th Highlanders with Long Lees.
1904 rifles training at Hythe (presumably '1904 rifles' refers to Mk1 SMLE's).
A sniper June 1916 likely at Mont des Cats, France.
Black Watch snipers.
Mont des Cats June 1916.

Attachment 96388Attachment 96389Attachment 96390Attachment 96391

And the rest!

Scout snipers 5 Bn July 1918.
Scout snipers 2 BN CEF July 1916.
Scout snipers 8 Bn CEF June 1916.
Scout snipers unidentified Bn Aug 1916.
Scout snipers unidentified Bn Aug 1916.

And a few more Harlan kindly Attachment 96392Attachment 96393Attachment 96394Attachment 96395Attachment 96396sent me.


4 Gordons leave.
APX on CLLE 1915.
Mont des Cats June 1916 with Long Lee.
Mont des Cats June 1916.
Riflemen WW1

Roger,
Thread 22 fourth photo from the left is indeed The Black Watch in August 1916 doing a Sniper Cadre in France. Its in my book SNIPERS DOWN SOUTH.
Still can't identify the location definatively as their museum thought it was Edinburgh Castle but was later changed as they couldn't find the door in the background at the castle, so had to revert to Mons De Cats.

Thanks Gil. Is the book out yet?

Roger,
No just waiting till the other book has had a fair run, as ours is a fundraising book for the museum so no mad rush, but the funding to put it all into motion and get them printed and launched should be 31st October next Trustee's meeting.

Interesting mix of rifles.

Amateur question here likely: Some of the rifles in these pictures look to be half-stocked like sporters, and in post #22 last picture the fellow furthest right (Closest to the camera) looks to have a rifle in this configuration but also with no rear sights on the barrel nor a scope. Is it possible that under his hand is a rear aperture sight? If so was this setup, as well as the other sporter looking rifles, something taken from rifle clubs at the time, a one off armourer's take at a marksman rifle with what was laying around, or not a Lee-enfield at all?

Also I hope you guys keep adding to this thread with any more info or pictures that crop up, its great stuff.

I think it's going to be difficult to be precise what that chap is using, although it's definitely of sporter configuration & does not appear to bear a scope. Not absolutely sure I could say unequivocally that it has no iron sights.....but my eyes are getting old! It's even difficult to say if it is an Enfield. The firer has his hands obscuring the view of the butt socket area, which might otherwise have helped.

Yes, I gather civvy target sights were used by marksmen, particularly early on, along with a vast array of assorted scopes using various mount systems. Later, the PPCo., Aldis, & Winchester A5 predominated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

but my eyes are getting old!

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My eyes are young and its hard, but if I can offer anything extra I will say I 'think' I can see what looks like a charger bridge just in front of his hand and a shiny brass butt-plate under his arm. In most of the other sporter like stocked rifles I can see the tell-tale 10 round mags hanging out to confirm being an Enfield, but some have the mags obscured. Almost all in these photos seem to have the fore-end done away with right in front of the mid-band, with the exception of our unknown prone friend.

Those are all fairly well known previously published photos, most of which have been posted previously here

As you'll see by comparing the threads, many of those photos were taken at the Canadian Corps School of Sniping at Mont des Cats in June 1916.

Many but not all Canadian brigades and battalions seem to have taken a fairly relaxed attitude to "sporterizing", but there is what also appears to be a Lee Speed sporter in use as mentioned.

Some more pictures from Ian.

Second post (couldn't get them into a single reply, probably Doug can "join" them).

The question which I feel the most compelled to ask is why the one lot have a goat?

Battalion Mascot

This is generally believed to be George Paudash, his observer looks aboriginal to me. The other fellow is just clowning around in a German field cap.

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....4&d=1540800502

Paudash is also second from right, front row in this one:

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....5&d=1540800502

More info about him here.

Seems he served less than a year in France due to various medical conditions. IIRC he was already quite an old man when he enlisted and was most unhappy about being sent home.

Photo flipped to show rifle correctly: