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In the market for an M1A-M14. There are plenty of them out there, I want to pick the right one. I realize the basic differences in the AR family, but I come across a few SA pre-ban guns. I would rather have a forged receiver, so I lean-away from the SA. Not bashing SA and I own several SA weapons. Is there any advantage to the pre-ban SA in terms of quality/durability vs. the recent production M1A's?
In the U.S. "pre-ban, post-ban" went out the window with the demise of the federal "assault weapons ban" in 2004. Post ban military style weapons were restricted in cosmetic features such as bayonet lugs, flash hiders, and the like. In New Jersey there is no pre-ban.. when it is banned you can not have it. New Jersey has the most restrictive firearms controls in the U.S.A. M1As were to be banned in NJ but SA Inc took off the bayonet lug and changed the logo. A number of states have state laws that mimic the old federal assault weapons ban that are in effect today. Take care in travel.
Are you also asking how to recognize a cast receiver v/s a forged receiver? Are you asking what's the difference between an M14 and an M1A? I know there's more to your question... Just because they are marked to Springfield Armory doesn't make them cast...
Correct Jim. One has to start with a rather short question and expand on it as the thread grows. I know the difference between a "real" M14 and an M1A. Sellers seem to often use the term M14 for either. I am not looking for a full-fledged M14 with selective fire...etc. I'd love to have one, but I imagine they are pretty scarce. I am having difficulty discerning a cast from a forged receiver based on descriptions, pictures and my limited knowledge concerning the M14/M1A family. I have no idea at the moment how to discern a forged or cast receiver on an SA. Thought there may be some way to tell from the serial number or differences in the eras between, B4 and after pre-ban.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I had the privilege of meeting the late Hook Boutin who is probably one of the most famous and esteemed Armorers the U.S. Army has ever produced. He was on the team that designed all of the NM modifications for the M14/M21 in the early 1970's. He serviced and did match accurizing on my 1978 SA M1A and a Smith Enterprise M-14 back in 2013 when he was 89 years old and still sharp as a tack. I flat out asked him which commercial receivers were the best in his experience working on them all for so many years. Bear in mind the SA Inc. is a casting, SEI forged from bar stock and LRB forged the same as the original M14 was. He told me the SA Inc receivers were the best. Thee was no hesitation or other questions asked so there you go. My M1A is now in M21 guise and on it's second barrel. I'd challenge anyone to hurt the receiver in a lifetime of use. Investment casting has also come a long, long way with quality control in the past 20-30 years. Food for thought.
I know that Ruger has taken the art of investment casting to a new level. Ruger handguns are considered by many to be one of the best and most rugged guns on the market. My brain is obviously fixed on forged steel receivers as a result of my years of experience with M1 Carbines and having personal experience with cast components in/on guns that fail. I'll likely never use this M1A enough to hurt the receiver anyway. I just have this itch that I must scratch. I may wind-up with an SA and my intentions were to determine if the early guns were better guns. That can be the case with most any manufacturer. S&W simply is not what it use to be. I favor my 90's Brazil family of SA 1911's over the current production guns. I'll usually be looking at a 25-year old gun B4 I purchase a new one.
Ah yes. The inexorable urges of the firearm enthusiast. I once bought one of the Chinese copies of the Winchester model 1887 shotgun. Sold it a couple months later because it “wasn’t real.” I feel your pain!Quote:
Originally Posted by flydthecat
The term now used with SAI M1A's is the 'golden age' rifles produced from 80's through very early '90s. They always had cast receivers, but in those years used a high percentage of GI surplus parts. Bolts, barrels, oprods ,trigger groups, sights etc. , and these are considered superior to rifles built using commercial parts since GI surplus has dwindled.
There are sites devoted to this rifle in all it's forms and manufacturer's .
Dick...school me a little on the M21 receiver. I think that is a Fulton...right? What particular attributes belong to the M21 and would that be a good mil-spec forged receiver. I have seen them on built-up guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
The M21 is just a bog standard M14, (in my case M1A), rebuilt to NM specification from flash hider to buttstock. They were equipped with Leatherwood ART telescopes and were the standard U.S. Army sniper rifle until the adoption of the Remington M24 in the late 1980's. The Fulton receivers are castings and not as good as the SA Inc. in my opinion. If you want a real forged receiver that's pretty much identical to GI sans the FA features, the only one out there is LRB. SEI is also a forging but from bar stock which is different. I'm happy with my SEI but it took a while to iron the bugs out of the rifle.
Good information. The couple of M21’s I’ve seen look very mil-spec and do include Winchester barrels, Winchester TG and TRW bolts. The builds I’ve seen look exactly like the rifle I want. Fulton seems to have a very good reputation in the Carbine world and they really like their stuff. I’ll have to seriously consider your remarks concerning their receivers.
Not quite right. You were given the option of registering the rifle as an assault weapon for $50.00 US in which you can also keep the hi-cap magazines as well. Additionally there is also a NJ attorney general's determination that M14 style rifles that if they meet the criteria of "being substantially identical" more than two "evils" are banned. Evils being bayonets lug, flash hider, threaded barrel, pistol grip. detachable magazine, etc. If you have one with two evils or less you are good to go. Other than being banned by name such as the Chicom M14S, you should be good to go. Of course that will be changing here in NJ shortly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom in N.J.
---------- Post added at 07:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 AM ----------
I believe Fulton's receivers are just a follow on to the Armscorp receivers made by Jack Freise in Baltimore. The commercial M21 is just a receiver marking to avoid the assault weapons ban in those states were M14s are ban by name. The M21 receiver can be just on a standard semi-auto rifle or one that is tricked out with all of the bells and whistles. single or double lagged receivers, NM barrels, scopes, etc. The military M21 is just a M14 NM with a Leatherwood scope and ART mount.Quote:
Originally Posted by flydthecat
There is no consistency in the QA of most of the semi-auto receivers being produced. They all have there up and and downs in different periods of production. The worst was probably Federal Ordnance.
I've learned a lot here about what NOT to consider. I can get one built locally on a BULA receiver in the price-range I am looking at. The "built-up" guns likely don't carry the warranty that a NIB SA does and I think I need to consider that.
Matter of fact a home built rifle has exactly NO warranty. They have NO idea what you did with their receiver or parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by flydthecat
Maybe a first time buyer would want to place some emphasis on the lifetime SA warranty to the original purchaser. I have had good success with the SA warranty staff. Here is an example of a builder's support plan.....(paraphrased) "We do not test-fire or fit-n-finish. You are advised to have the weapon checked by a competent gunsmith prior to firing". Now isin't that a comforting thought. Dosen't take long for me to pass on that build. Just stuff some parts in a gun and sell it.
We had a thread about that very thing not long ago, a dealer cranking together M1 rifles I think, substandard too... If you go into a huddle with Brian of BDL Ltd, he's here...you could go through a reputable dealer and perhaps get your rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by flydthecat
Jim-- I agree additionally if you should have to sell the rifle for any reason and if the rifle should blow up in the new owner's face, you cold be looking at a heavy law suit since the builder is probably not a gunsmith by trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
---------- Post added at 07:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 AM ----------
I recently looked at M1 Grand that someone put together to be on the cheap. The individual used a CAI cast receiver (way out of spec). I used SA 1963 .30-06 Garand barrel with a .308 Winchester insert (comes out easily, US Navy tried this during the Vietnam War and junked the idea when in rapid fire the insert would come out, firing a 7.62mm NATO round in a .30-06 chamber is not a good idea), an Italian modified op rod which 1/2 inch too short for the gas cylinder. All of the other parts are well used and are heavily sand blasted and refinished but the stock was very nice from a Beretta M1. Definitely a disaster waiting to happen.
Cheers
--fjruple
Probably even if you were you'd face the troubles...Quote:
Originally Posted by fjruple
I have been inside Fulton Armory (I don't think that they allow visitors now). Like SA Inc, they also offer a lifetime warranty. They call their products "hand crafted", & that's not an exaggeration. Each rifle is assembled, gauged, & tested one at a time. Not cheap, but premium quality never is.
Clinton's ban did not apply to the M1A. Hence, there's no such thing as a pre or post ban SA Inc. rifle.
"...want to pick the right one..." To do what? How much money do you want to spend?
The M21 is a military designation for a gussied up M-14 based sniper rifle. Closest would probably be a scoped M1A 'Loaded' with the walnut stock. Must say the unscoped, semi'd, Winchester with the fibreglass stock I have is very pleasant to carry at 9.8 pounds. So a Standard with either synthetic stock will do nicely too.
"...Ruger has taken the art of investment casting to a new level..." Ruger's entire firearm business is based on that. Was right from the get go. They still have a "side-line" business making stuff for industry.
Cast parts are not the same thing as investment cast either. However, your vehicle's engine block is cast. Ever see one break?
"...US Navy tried this during the Vietnam War..." Tried it in the 1950's. Long before the U.S. got involved in SEA.
And any rifle Century had anything to do with is suspect at best. They are notorious for assembly rifles out of parts bins with zero QC. Not even checking the headspace to ensure the thing was safe to shoot.
The only thing that was affected by the 1994 AWB was the flash hider. The bayonet lugs were eliminated. Chinese M14S imports from Norinco and Polytechnologies over that period of time had flash hiders with unfinished solid flutes and no bayonet lugs. Later imports had it cut off beyond the threaded muzzle so all it was was a front sight base.
The M21 was a bit more than gussied up. It was a standard M14 rebuilt to National Match specification with a medium weight barrel and the addition of the Leatherwood ART telescope and mount. They will shoot MOA all day long if well maintained using M118 ammo. I had them in my care as a young Armorer in the mid 80's and the sniper candidates that took them to school did quite well with them even though they were getting a bit long in the tooth.