Queensland Governemt Martini Henry Carbine

G'day there, I've been hanging around the Lee Enfield section trying to cure my Enfield addiction which has alas only worsened, but the other day I had a look at an old MH IC1 carbine that my family has had for a while. And with some of my Enfield knowledge I believe it may be something of an interesting rifle.

Its an 1886 Enfield IC1 with 'SY' marked forward of the breech (I have read this is for an upgraded extractor), some sold out of service marks, yet most interestingly a "Q/|\G" which from what I know is a Queensland Government marking. This same mark appears on the butt-stock along with the Enfield Roundel, a "1" which I believe to mean "First class", the serial which matches the action body, a '6' (Tasmanian military district is the only thing I can link this to atm but that contradicts the qld marks), a sold out of service mark, and finally "R7/97" which I assume to be either a repair or a store date of July 1997.

Another interesting thing is that both under the butt-plate on the butt itself and on the inside surface of the butt-plate is what looks like a set of tallies, with one being only 3 vertical and 1 across (Which seems odd). Now I am not rash enough to think this is some Kill count but I am not sure what else it could be. Is this common to MH rifles?

The rifle itself is very rusted as it sat in a shed, from what I am told, for a very long time, but its otherwise complete but partially disassembled and soaked in oil to halt the rust for now. The rifling is horrendous but with cleaning it'd probably be shootable.

I have looked at Skennerton's SAIS book on the MH rifles but found nothing relating to QLD rifles, nor could I find anything about them mentioned on here. The serial on this rifle is 281 (The '3' is from an amnesty as law recquires a 4 digit serial, real shame), and when I think about it a state like qld back in the 1880's can't have had a use for a massive amount of firearms (For police or whatever else. It doesn't have a 'P' or anything anywhere but it would make sense as a mounted police rifle), so does anyone know anything about rifles like this? Serial number range? What they did? How long they served? Etc.

So yeah wondering if anyone has any info or has a rifle similar. I'm gonna clean it up one day when I stop finding Lee-Enfields to repair. Maybe even make up some loads with bertram brass for it too. Very cool rifle.
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Originally Posted by nijalninja

a sold out of service mark, and finally "R7/97" which I assume to be either a repair or a store date of July 1997.

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Should that be July 1897?

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Originally Posted by nijalninja

...Another interesting thing is that both under the butt-plate on the butt itself and on the inside surface of the butt-plate is what looks like a set of tallies, with one being only 3 vertical and 1 across (Which seems odd). Now I am not rash enough to think this is some Kill count but I am not sure what else it could be. Is this common to MH rifles?

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Those "tally marks" are typical batch assembly marks. Often found on old blackpowder rifles from the days before industrial mass production. Probably there was a workshop doing a lot of refurbushment, and so the parts of the dismantled rifles were marked in a place that would not be visible after reassembly, so that the bits did not become mixed up.

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Originally Posted by nijalninja

...The rifling is horrendous but with cleaning it'd probably be shootable.

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Clean...shoot...clean...shoot...

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Clean...shoot...clean...shoot...

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Yes, it could use a lot. That wood could use some TLC so as to not remove all the character but lift some of the grime out of the stampings. Very attractive buttstock. The metal needs more.

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Originally Posted by nijalninja

The rifle itself is very rusted as it sat in a shed

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There are several threads about electrolysis here and the process can be accomplished with little experience and minimum set up or outlay. It would be an excellent candidate for that process.

There is no know cure for Enfield addiction ...

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Should that be July 1897?

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Goodness me how did I get that wrong? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Those "tally marks" are typical batch assembly marks. Often found on old blackpowder rifles from the days before industrial mass production. Probably there was a workshop doing a lot of refurbushment, and so the parts of the dismantled rifles were marked in a place that would not be visible after reassembly, so that the bits did not become mixed up.

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Now that makes quite a lot of sense.

BAR, I will be cleaning the stock up as like you say it looks quite nice. Towards the wrist area it has a very distinctive almost layered pattern. I have also heard of this electrolysis technique and wanted to try, but up until now I have just used a wire brush and oil and a lot of time. I don't feel like spending 5 hours scraping all the rust down so yeah I might give it a go.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

There is no know cure for Enfield addiction ...

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Truer words have never been spoken.

Thanks everyone, but I must ask specifically if anyone has seen another MH rifle like this before? To me it makes sense that a rifle like this would be excellent in paddy wagons.

A "QG" marked Martini Henry is a bit of a rarity.

Queensland-marked MH carbines are pretty thin on the ground, even the "cadet" variant with its peculiar fore-end which lacked the usual carbine nose-cap and that left a few inches of barrel clear. No bayonet was apparently to be fitted. These conversions were done about 1900. Most examples of these are found "rendered innocuous" by having the muzzle squashed and / or the mechanism "neutered". It also seems that many of the MH rifles were "traded in" for Martini Enfields or, later, along with a lot of other interesting goodies, stripped and the metal bits used as reinforcing bars in some of the footings of a bridge, by popular legend, the Storey Bridge, across the Brisbane river.

A long time back, I had a Victorian-marked MH rifle and a "QG" Martini Enfield but off-loaded both for what seemed at the time to be a good sum. I saw another "QG" marked Martini-Enfield with a surprisingly good bore in Toowoomba about four years ago, but had to pass as these rifles seem to have appreciated in price somewhat in the intervening years.

Mix some tups and linseed oil together and use to clean the woodwork, takes a bit of elbow grease but a lot of the dirt and grime will be removed.

Electrolysis is the answer for rust, safe and very effective, am sure Patrick will agree....... you may loose the bluing/browning though...... you could just boil it in de ironised water, the rust will break down, it how original bluing/ browning was produced, the item was rusted then boiled and then carded.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

the woodwork

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I'm looking but can't see too well, is that English Walnut we can guess? Considering where it came from? Should clean and leave a finish you can reach right into.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I'm looking but can't see too well, is that English Walnut we can guess? Considering where it came from? Should clean and leave a finish you can reach right into.

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I would say without a doubt Jim its English walnut, they clean up really well over time, I had a MH that was jet black, after initial detox of the crud etc, I had to leave it a sunny room and let it sweat the old oil out etc, then used the turps and linseed, sold it for funds for my Matchless G3L........ and the bayonet..........

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

I had a MH that was jet black

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WE had one of those here too, long lever I think it was. Black like coal and after two treatments came clean and golden brown...

Regarding "English' walnut.

Early SMLE specifications refer to walnut, but not specifically "English" walnut.

When Lithgow kicked off production, the specified walnut apparently came from Italy. That was the timber of "first-choice". This started to get tricky during WW1, not because the Italians were "on the other side", far from it, but because global demand for carefully-selected, correctly-sawn, seasoned for years, straight-grained walnut spiked spectacularly after August 1914. See also the excellent walnut previously sourced from Turkey and Russia.

And in the woodwork saga lies another "beauty" of the Lee Enfield system.

Look at a Gewehr 98, M-91 Carcano, M-91 Moisin Nagant and just about everybody's service rifles of the era, and further look at the stocks. LONG!! and with a lump at one end. How many of those could you hack from a walnut tree? Think of the differential of drying times and rates between the fore-end bit and the butt-end of the raw flitch.

On the Lee Enfield (and, indeed the preceding Martini Henry), you needed long-ish slivers of straight-grained timber for the fore-end, and a SEPARATE triangle of wood of "less straight" grain to make the butt stock.

The Japanese twigged to the problem, hence their clever twist on "two-piece" furniture on the Arisakas.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

not specifically "English" walnut.

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Sort of misspoke myself there...was trying not to say European walnut though as we here picture it as that light colored beautiful stuff the Mausers sometimes showed up wearing.

Yes, a diagram would be of interest showing how many stocks could come from a tree selected...

I'm not one to dig up things that have kind of settled but a new fountain of info has come to light regarding this rifle in the form of a book by one J.S. Robinson: "Arms in the Service of Queensland" (Arms in the service of Queensland 1859-1901 / by J.S. Robinson. - Version details - Trove). The book is also listed on Skennerton's website: http://www.skennerton.com/reprints.html .

There is plenty of information dating well past the 1886 of this rifle, and plenty on Martini Henry's themselves but as to an 1886 Enfield IC ? Not a massive amount. There are reciepts and orders of guns, from QLD, before and after this time but nothing at this exact time, but a list is included on page 59 about all the consignments of MH rifles in QLD until 1895. I won't go into the whole thing comparing bits and pieces and why it confuses me, BUT at the end are totals for arms for Land Defence, Marine Defence, and the Police, which purports that in 1892 their were 345 carbines with Land Defence troops, some undisclosed amount and type with Marine Defence, and some 306 with the police. There is mention in the book of some arms being marked 'QP' as compared to 'QG' to denote their intended role but no such distinction made with MH rifles and carbines.

One might think that as this rifle has no sling swivels and a travel ring it was intended for mounted use on horseback only. There is no mention that the Land Defence had mounted units, but they certainly had artillery. Alternatively in earlier times the book makes mention of mounted units in the police, but again nothing of the like around the time of the MH rifles except in the designation of the carbines being "cavalry" or "interchangeable" or "artillery" type.

I think a letter to the author, if he is still around, is in order.

Sadly, "Stan" Robinson is no longer with us.

Sad to say I suspected that, and very sad to hear it. Thanks for confirming Bruce. This rifle may just have sparked his curiousity if he were still around. Guess I will have to pay an extra careful eye on his book to learn what I can.