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Good evening all,
I apologize if my post is in the wrong section.
I recently bought this scope, a Winchester A5; it has the broad arrow along with two different numbers, which I assume are serial numbers? It has simple cross hairs. Regrettably, the mounts are not original to the scope and is a later addition made by Lyman.
I would be grateful for any information that can shed a light as to the back ground of this particular scope.
Many thank and kind regards,
K
As you probably guessed it has an SMLE rifle number engraved on the tube, then lined out when the rifle was lost/destroyed/shot out and the scope then refitted to another rifle.
The odd part is the number 8.8455 doesn't correspond any serial number range I can think of off-hand. Maybe someone else has an idea?
Where did you find it, out of curiosity?
I think it is not "8.8455" but a highly serifed S and should read "S.8455".
The re-serialized Winchester A5 scope is something new to me, I had not seen this before. Thank you for sharing it with us and if you decide to sell the scope, please let me know! :)
Surpmil, it's actually S 8455. I purchased this off a dealer in the UK who had it in his possession for several years who didn't know anything about its provenance other than it was an ex-sniper scope. I had fun negotiating for it :D
Promo, thank you but this is going in my collection :)
If you keep it and want a fun project, send Roger Payne a PM and ask if he still has one of the mount copies for the Whitehead mount. You then can have it mounted on a SMLE and put the scope on the rifle so you have a tribue rifle which you can also shoot.
Just got back from a few days away. Yes, it's a nice re-serialled ex-SMLE sniper Winchester scope. If you could manage some more detailed photo's of the rear rings/adjusters, they could be originals, although the front looks to have been replaced as you say. Does the rear one actually bear the Lyman name? The larger lined out serial is typical of scopes that were engraved up. Most only bear one rifle number, though I've seen two or three with two. I am currently awaiting another batch of the reproduction Whitehead bases, although I'm not yet sure which side of Xmas they will arrive.......
Hi Roger, the mounts are Lyman as confirmed by the patent dates on them. Would you be able to point me to a set of original Winchester mounts?
Regards,
K
Well, I can only dream of putting together a WW1 SMLE, this scope is the perfect starting point for such a rifle project...
Great find!
Hi. I'm sorry to say that I don't have any spares - just those that came on my scopes, but I did hear some time ago of a chap in the US that may have had them. It was a while back but I'll try & find the details, if I still have them. I only get the bases made I'm afraid.
There is a guy in the US and I’m still trying to get in touch with him too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
Roger I need to touch base with you re the Mounts
Sparkbrook - done!
I've heard from the machinist & hope to have the Whitehead mounts within about a couple of weeks or so. I'll keep people posted.
Well, it was four weeks in the end, not two, but I now have a small supply of faithful copy Whitehead Brothers mount bases for the Winchester A5/SMLE combination. They are finished & in the white, but people will still need to drill & tap the 4 BA holes in the rifle body, the rear sight protector, & the flat angle iron plates (the latter to locate the dovetail blocks). I'll be selling them for 250 GBP a set. Anyone interested please give me a shout.
The A5s are quite common on eBay. The tubes themselves probably can't be exported without permits due to ITAR /US Dept. of State regulations, but the mounts possibly can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkbrook
For example
Considering only 907 were procured for the British military in WW1 it surprises me just how often (relatively speaking) broad arrow marked examples turn up.
May we assume - based on this - the mount compared to the public opinion on being quite an odd construction did pretty well in the field and many made it back? Or on the counterpart may we assume that it was so poor, not many made it into the field and most were kept for training within the UK and therefore many survived?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
Well, according to TBS it was fielded & well thought of by the men, although I don't know from where IDS solicited this information. I have a suspicion, but have not a shred of evidence to back it up, that those bearing a rifle serial were mated to a rifle & issued straight away, & those bearing the broad arrow & Enfield examiner's mark, may have been put into store.
By all accounts the Canadians seemed to rate them and retro-fitted them to Ross Rifles in the field so they can't have been that bad.
The defects compared to a shorter, more robust and better sealed tube are obvious to all of us no doubt. The field of view was not large either, though the nominal 5x magnification put it up with the Warner & Swasey in that department. The tiny lenses meant light gathering was poor. Compared to the Aldis or anything German it was a bad joke, but the Aldis never got the mounts it deserved.
On the plus side it was easy to fit and adjust "in the field", and could be mounted overbore on simple, commercial bases. The light weight and recoiling tube/mounts allowed it to be slid forward on the Ross at least, so that charger loading was possible. Shock to the mounts was obviously much less than with rigid mounts which tended to shoot themselves loose, a race to the workshops the Purdey design no doubt won hands down.
On the down side the A5/B4 would need to be pulled back after every shot, unless some soldiers perhaps got wise to the idea of using the same large rubber bands that were used to hold the Warner & Swasey scopes from flopping around to bring the A5s back into battery after each shot. No photos of that known to me, just a guess of what might have been done. Probably quite a few were glad enough to have the scope slide well away from their eyes as the rifle recoiled!
As one Canadian sniper pointed out in his book, the scope held up surprisingly well and many a ---- was last seen alive through one.
The finely graduated adjustments were better than most, but as the above sniper pointed out, the scales should have been "zero-able".
The best point of all must have been the fact that Canadian battalions and the Department of Militia & Defence, could order what they needed and have it shipped from the USA promptly without going through the tortuous ways of the "War Office ink slingers", as Fuller called them.
The survival rate is attributable to the fact that they were easy to mount and dismount, mounts and bases were carried by the likes of Parker Hale for decades after the war, they could be fitted to all sorts of calibers, even .22s and the adjustments and scales used as found. Almost a DIY job for the impecunious post-war marksman, unlike the PPCo. and Aldis which required the very expensive services of a gunsmith to make much use of.