WW2 Sniper CES

I typically don't get involved in the "full kit" CES collecting and stick to just the obvious contents of the Crate, however I just experienced an opportunity of a lifetime to increase my collection and along came a couple of the extra items - the spotting scope and a pocket watch. The latter is what this post is really about.

Can anyone provide further info per the war time use, types and specs of such watches? I have seen the later wrist watches posted here..I also collect civilian pocket watches back to 1870 or so - this is my first broad arrow example..

Many shanks in advance.

I have come across a few of those for the entire kit. I never really pulled the trigger because the “kit” is never ending. I do have the wrist watch however... I let the pocket watch go.

General Service Time Piece - GSTP. Not sure it was ever listed in the CES though, but may have been at the very start. Clearly the G10 watch was issued "generally" as a starred item later with the binos, something you dare not lose, but certainly can't remember the pocket watch scenario!

I wonder if the pocket watch dates back to WWI when wrist watches were not as common.

The 1946 and 1951 Sniping pamphlets both list under additional equipment Watches, GS (General Service). The corresponding pictures see below shows a pocket watch with a black face.

Attachment 96870Attachment 96869This is what I got

This may interest you.

From the book: "Military Timepieces 1880 - 1990" by Z. M. Wesolowski.

I have to agree a watch of sorts was most probably used by the NO2 as indicated, but certainly it was only in the very early 70's from my recollection, and I hope Peter picks up on this, that watches, strapped for the use of, were finally issued to snipers and included in the CES. They became a starred item and issued to all NCO's and Officers.

Speckles,
The CWC watch you show is a fairly recent addition, and issued with MWC, SEIKO and others. What is the date on the back please which will indicate its manufacture date?

Picture of my mechanical CWC (Cabot Watch Company) W10 wristwatch, this one is 1975 and I have recently had it cleaned and serviced, I believe the CWC manufactured W10 mechanical watch first came into service in 1972. It was replaced in 1980 by the G10 quartz watch.

I believe the GSTP was CESSI, Complete Equipment Schedule Supplimentary Issue. Probably available at unit level along with camouflage x2 scarf, compass and binoculars.
When sniping recommenced in 1973 the wrist watch took the place of the GSTP and was also available at unit level along with prismatic compass and binoculars however these items were no longer CESSI and drawn from stores as starred items which the sniper would sign his life away for.

Mine shows 1050/82... so I assume watch number 1,050 from 1982

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

I have to agree a watch of sorts was most probably used by the NO2 as indicated, but certainly it was only in the very early 70's from my recollection, and I hope Peter picks up on this, that watches, strapped for the use of, were finally issued to snipers and included in the CES. They became a starred item and issued to all NCO's and Officers.

Speckles,
The CWC watch you show is a fairly recent addition, and issued with MWC, SEIKO and others. What is the date on the back please which will indicate its manufacture date?

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Speckles,
Yes absolutely right the 1050th watch of 1982 in larger text at the bottom of the rear plate, with the NSN NATO STOCK Number beside it including a 99 indicating it was made for NATO countries to avail themselves of it if they so wish.;)

For anyone into watches, then look out for one of these WW2 "dirty Dozen" below in the article......... I missed out on an Omega sometime back.

In-Depth: The An Incredible Collection Of 12 (Mostly) Inexpensive Military Watches - HODINKEE

Just a few what I consider to be '....erronious' comments in this thread. We used to overhaul and repair all of the mechanical wrist watches you see here (see Big Duk's post). The WWW stands for Watches, Wristlet, Waterproof and the W10 is the VAOS category and VB the stores codification. The Omega was followed by 10033 while the Vertex was 10018. I worked on all of the watches listed in the superb post by Big Duke. These are what we called the 'primary makers' Without doubt, the nicest the 30T2 W10VB 10033 Omega followed by the Longines. Equal to the Longines was the Jaeger le Coutre. I never saw an IWC or a Grana and very few Buren. We had a saying in the Instrument circles. If you are just rich, buy a Rolex. If you are rich and have style, buy an Omega. If you are rich, have style and want everlasting reliability, buy a Longines! I gave my son a G-10 Longines when he was old enough to appreciate it - but kept a pair of consecutively serially numbered Omegas for myself of course!

I'm surprised that the author of Big Dukes article says that mixing up parts was common...... Not in my experience. None of the backs were ever interchangeable (certainly without model engineering and tool room skills at a guess) and the designation and serial number were on the backs. And all of the serial numbers commenced with a different letter. Omega with a Y and Vertex with an A and so on. All the movements were mated to a case so you'd struggle to fit an Omega movement or hands onto/into a Jaeger case to work a fiddle!!!!! And any case, a mechanical wristwatch was deemed to be V&A for Valuable and attractive and to loose one was almost a hanging offence. Unless it was active service with ........ anyway!!!!! The first of the post war replacements that we saw when back in England in the early 70's was the Smiths Industries from Witney wristwatches, made in Wales. Quite nice but still expensive. a few mechanical CWC's (not good!) and then the quarts fat-boy CWC's, slimline CWC's, both with battery bay access and later the one-way-trip Pulsars. They didn't even have battery access. So as soon as the battery died so did the watch! You only had to look inside to see the movement. Then look into a lovely Eterna (another good one) or Omega - and cry!

As for the supplementary issues. Chosenman is 99% sort-of correct. The supplementary kit was not part of the CES - as in the chest. It meant that the actual issue of the CES to the unit would automatically trigger an update in the QM's scales giving him the authority to demand the supplementary issues according to the new issue scale - if that makes sense. So if the Battalion had, say, another 4 snipers allocated for doctrinal or tactical reasons or deployment, then when the QM got the rifles, he could also get the extra compasses, binos, wrist watches etc etc

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

to lose one was almost a hanging offence.

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Even losing one of our cheap ones caused waves that could drown you...that never changed because they were "Attractive items" and kept secured.

Starred items and a long time in jail if lost!!:lol:

Later, you could buy genuine Army CWC wristwatches in the shops and on ebay. New for £60 I seem to recall. There was no real repair policy so thousands were sold off by the government as sales. However, soon, the crunchies learned that if you got issued with one and 'lost' it, you'd be charged the VAOS 'charge-for' price - which was £25 - the bulk, buy-in cost price! So they'd loose one, buy it and be done with it.

The BIGGEST killer of the old mechanical wrist watches, without any shadow of doubt was the ending of the wartime and post war leather straps (that were crap really. These were replaced in the early to mid 60's by a sand coloured nylon strap. Alas, these nylon straps didn't have the secondary 'double restraint strap' built in as the later grey straps do. As a result, as soon as you took he watch off, it';d slide down the strap, onto the floor. That resulted in one or two things happening to it. Or BOTH. The balance staff would break (that fault was always 10033/3) or the winding head shearing off the stem (a 10033/12 fault).

Don't ask me how I remember these things............

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

So they'd lose one, buy it and be done with it.

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I suppose but there were certainly better watches available at Canex...almost any sports watch. Here's the one I have from somewhere in time. Probably at the end from the reserves...I don't recall. You see the manufacture date. I included the strap so you can see they're the same. This one is wind-up of course.

Blimey Jim, you are pulling out the rare watches now...................You lot haven't seen old watches, here's the first "Cromwells Watch Company" CWC watch, now thats what I call old, alright I know there's no NSN on it!!!! :lol:

One of our strict specs was that the strap bars were fixed to prevent them pulling out. A lot of people bent the crap out of them to fit special all singing and dancing straps - only to find that the commercial springy strap bars didn't fit! If it ain't broke, don't fix it I say.

Of army wristwatches. The owner of my little local garage asked me if I wanted a slimline CWC many years ago, for £20 or 25! He'd taken it in lieu of payment for some petrol from a local passing crunchie. So I paid and took it. I enquired with the Tech QM as to whether it could be traced through the serial number and Ordnance system. He just laughed

Yes the rigid bar has proved to be a real pain on occasions operationally Peter as you will know only too well, especially when parachuting or catching the strap in anything.
The reality is you would have to cut your wrist off if it ever got caught up thats how strong the combination of the NATO watch strap and the rigid posts are, it would not give in!!!:madsmile:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

as to whether it could be traced through the serial number

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That'll be the next question here later, if we can trace issue and wartime provenance...through issue records.

Jim/Peter,
You most certainly can. When I was in RMP we had access to ALL NSN driven stock right across the Military board Army/Navy/Air Force and which units were allocated "each piece" by its unique number!! :lol: