Early Rock Island 1903

I came into possession of this rifle a little while back, and now that I've gone through it I'd like to get the comments and thoughts of the experts.

I would like to point out that I've done nothing to this rifle other than a light surface cleaning and oiling as I took it apart and checked it out. It clearly has been well cared for by its previous owners. Sadly, at some point, the stock was cleaned 'vigorously' enough to remove much of the cartouche. By looking at the cartouche at various angles, I'm fairly certain it is a Conrad Nelson, but the seeing the date is beyond my abilities.

I will be posting more photo's in a little while. Please let me know if there is a specific photo or close up you would like to see.

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Four digits! Super cool. A real survivor, for sure.

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Here's what I think I know about this rifle - from reading (and reading between the lines) the CS Ferris book 'Rock Island Rifle Model 1903'. ..... and this is where I hope the experts will come in and correct me.

The receiver and rifle were both made in 1905 for use with the .30-'03 cartridge. The barrel was originally configured for use as a rod bayonet barrel. Sometime, in the period between 1906 and 1908, the barrel was shortened .2", given a new front and rear sight, all as part of the modification for the 30-06 cartridge.

The stock is not an altered rod bayonet stock. It has been shortened by .2", so it was made after the decision to replace the rod bayonet and prior to the decision to use the 30-06 cartridge.

At some point, probably in the 06 to 08 time frame, the barrel, receiver and stock came together. The cartouche date may have helped in knowing the year that happened.


If this timeline is basically correct, I am left with two things I can't explain

- The rifle has what appears to be two proof marks? Is it likely the person applying the proof mark hit it twice? Is it possible the stock was originally a completed 03-03 rifle that was proofed, and then proofed again as a 30-06.

- The butt of the stock has a slot routed into the upper recess to accommodate a kit not approved until 1910. The timing for that work would seem to throw a wrench into the supposed time frame this rifle was assembled.


For whatever it's worth, this rifle does not appear to have been used 'hard'. Obviously it was made long before the heat treatment issue was identified. Although I didn't include a close up - there is no 'Hatcher hole'.


I also have a question on the bolt, and whether or not it is correct for the rifle. I'm asking not because I suspect it isn't correct, but because I don't have the knowledge to know if it is correct.

Guys, please educate me: what is a butt stock? Is it the same as the butt of the rifle's stock, the rear most part? Why do we talk of a butt stock then?

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Guys, please educate me: what is a butt stock? Is it the same as the butt of the rifle's stock, the rear most part? Why do we talk of a butt stock then?

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Corrected. In my case it is a bad habit learned from my father when I was very young. I find myself still using that 'phrase' but usually catch it when 'proofing' my text. Thank you for pointing it out and bringing back the good memories.

Thank you, thought I was missing something, somewhere.

Some years ago, I also found a early Rock Island, not as early as your sn 8485, but from around early 1907. My serial number is 64145 and barrel is RIA 3-07. Rear sight is also open bottom but never relocated. My rear sight leaf is without the rib on top and the slide is square on the left side which is a very early variation. My stock also has the single bolt and cartouche is very faint too. Handguard also has the groove like yours but without the clips.

I would say you have a very early Rock Island and quite rare with that barrel.Attachment 97006Attachment 97007Attachment 97008Attachment 97009Attachment 97010Attachment 97011

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Originally Posted by RCS

Some years ago, I also found a early Rock Island, not as early as your sn 8485, but from around early 1907. My serial number is 64145 and barrel is RIA 3-07. Rear sight is also open bottom but never relocated. My rear sight leaf is without the rib on top and the slide is square on the left side which is a very early variation. My stock also has the single bolt and cartouche is very faint too. Handguard also has the groove like yours but without the clips. .....

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Do you still have it? And more importantly, have you shot it. I think this one will become the first of my display (only) queens.

I have not fired my Rock Island s/n 64145 although the bore is really nice, I do shoot two other four digit Rock Island rebuilds, both having early SA pre WW1 barrels and early parts. I used an auxiliary chamber adopter to fire 32 ACP and 32 S&W short, now I can also shoot 32 S&W Long. These sub caliber inserts work out nice in your indoor pistol range or basement range. Interesting that the 30M1 carbine is not a good choice because of the velocity and bullet weight ! I noticed that I posted my four digit SA by mistake

My favorite early 1903 is a Springfield s/n 160963 with a SA 2-07 dated barrel and a "no bolt" stock with the CCV cartouche and inletted just like your Rock Island stock.Attachment 97013Attachment 97014Attachment 97015

Due to the non professional installation of the front sight base and the rear sight base, I think it is a good possibility that your rifle is a restoration.

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Originally Posted by m1903rifle

Due to the non professional installation of the front sight base and the rear sight base, I think it is a good possibility that your rifle is a restoration.

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Can you elaborate?

Here are some photos of the front sight studs or bases.

left is ram rod bayonet 1903 front sight base

middle is the 1903/05 front sight stud as found on sn 8485

right is the late 1903 stud used until the 1903A3

note the location of the stud pinAttachment 97017Attachment 97018

RCS, Thanks for posting those photo's. That's a very impressive collection you have at your fingertips. Makes a great reference! By comparison, I only have one other 1903. It's another RIA made just after the heat treatment changes. (I did own a sporter when I was in high school that's long gone - remember the days when a high school kid could buy a rifle?). Anyway, I did pull my later 03 out to do those comparisons, but having the uninstalled parts to look at is even better.

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The photo's I shared of the front and rear sights (& bases) were intentionally taken to show the specifics that were unique to the ramrod bayonet barrels that were shortened for the 30-06 cartridge. As you know, those things (that I am aware of) are the front sight base pin location, the exposed slot/keyway at the rear of the front sight base, and the no longer used transverse groove visible through bottom of the rear sight base. Since those differences are expected, I figure there must be something else visible in the photo's to have a determination made they were installed by a non-professional. Since I posted this thread so I could learn things, I'd like to know what those things are. Thus my earlier question for elaboration. When you're looking at these photos, do you see anything that raises a flag?

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Originally Posted by RCS

... I used an auxiliary chamber adopter to fire 32 ACP and 32 S&W short, now I can also shoot 32 S&W Long. These sub caliber inserts work out nice in your indoor pistol range or basement range.....

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Those sound pretty cool but, sadly, I don't have access to an indoor pistol range.

Unless I am seeing things, the transverse pins for the rear sight fixed base and the front sight base are visible. They would not have left the arsenal that way. Also, I am wondering if the spline on the barrel for the front sight base is present.

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Originally Posted by m1903rifle

Unless I am seeing things, the transverse pins for the rear sight fixed base and the front sight base are visible. They would not have left the arsenal that way. Also, I am wondering if the spline on the barrel for the front sight base is present.

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Thanks for clearing that up for me. You're eyes aren't deceiving you, the pins are visible. The spline does seem to be present. I won't be taking the sight off to verify, but there is something solid filling the slot about the expected depth of .2" in.

Nice one RCS, if your rifle bbl and #64145 receiver are original to each other it is then according to the serial number, one of the first rifles as originally assembled off the line in the beginning of 1907. Apparently the arsenal got the approval to begin producing new rifles off the line in 1907 and those are made with all new and the correct dated parts. Prior to 1907, RI rifles are found as being assembled from misc earlier and later made parts were the bbl will not match the serial number date.

I have one like yours having the serial number #87241 originally produced off the line with the correct matching bbl date of 6-07. Ray

Ray, My Rock Island #64145 has the original RIA 3-07 barrel. I remember your #87241 rifle and believe it had the same rear sight leaf without top rib and
square left side as my rifle. These were early sight parts

Both my rifle and RCS' are the very first production Rock Island rifles that were originally manufactured with all newly made and correct dated components in the very first months of RI 1903 production in 1907-08. They are not put together rifles using earlier mixed Rod bayonet or 30-03 parts that were put together up to until 1911.
These rifles that were made with newly made parts with matching receiver and barrel dates. See C.S. Ferris & J. Beard, pg 25.
My rifle has all the correct early dated components and has a early high wood stock with no reinforcement bolts, a split rear sight base, and a no sight groove hand guard, also the small rear sight wheel and the Platinum sight line on the rear sight leaf slider. The stock has a “CN” 1908 cartouche and an “S” stamp on the stock tip and a proof “P”. Not many of these early rifles have survived in their original configuration and both being very scarce in their early original manufactured condition and not having been assembled from misc parts or using upgraded parts but were completely manufactured as they are in 1907 with final inspection in 1908. Ray

Curved "7"s indicate an SA Rear Sight ladder ; RIA Rear Sight Ladders have straight stemmed "7"s..Dig the platinum vertical inlay on the aperture...

Gorgeous rifle

Here's my early totally correct Rock Island rifle. Serial #87241, bbl date, 6-07, 30-06 caliber. This is a very rare rifle as it is one of the first production Rock Island rifles originally manufactured with all newly made and correct components made in the very first few months of the RI 1903 production. It’s not one of the put together rifles using mixed early Rod bayonet or 30-03 parts. This rifle has all the correct early first month's dated manufactured components. It has a high wood stock with no reinforcement bolts, a split rear sight base cut out, and a no sight groove hand guard, also the small rear sight wheel and the Platinum sight line on the rear sight leaf slider and the early notch cutout at the top of the RI sight leaf. The stock is in excellent condt. with a excl “CN” 1908 cartouche and an “S” stamp on the stock tip and a proof “P”. Overall the rifle is still in about VG condition having a spotty faded fading blue/gray finish on the receiver which is common for these early Rock Islands rifles. The bore appears to be about Good. A very scarce early original manufactured R.I. 1903 rifle in the same assembled configuration as it came off the assembly line in first few months of normal 03 production and not assembled from misc parts. It is also especially rare because it was made in the the start up of normal arsenal assembly of 1903 RI rifles. It's complete with a very early sling that was assembled by the arsenal using sections of two earlier slings sewn together for the earlier month's rifles. Both sections are stamped, “Rock Island” and with 1905 dates. Ray

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Ray, your early Rock Island is one of the best examples around, my RIA 64145 is early but has had some changes in the wood such as the added rear stock bolt and groove to the handguard. I found RIA 64145 from the backroom of an old hardware store and paid a fair price, when I saw the early rear sight, I knew that I had to buy it.

Some years ago the CMP auction had some early RIA four digit receivers in really nice condition and I bought sn 3670 just for the novelty of the low serial and the nice condition. At a gun show I came across a box of 1903 parts and found a Rock Island leaf and early square corner slide, also had a nice SA 6-16 barrel and a SA high wood stock with a single bolt and did the restoration. While not worth much it is still a nice restoration with the early sight and stock.Attachment 102442Attachment 102443Attachment 102444

Hello every one. My name is Joe Hardin and I am new to the form. I was researching a rifle my uncle gave me years ago and came crossed Ray,s post on his rifle # 87241 and my rifle is exactly the same accept for the barrel date. I am an avid collector of pre 64 model 70 winchesters and colt 1911 pistols. My uncle is long gone now but he gave specific instructions for my aunt to give me this gun and I was wondering why so I am trying to find more about it.
Rays gun and this seem to have a lot in common.
The value of this gun is of no interest to me but knowing it,s early history is.
I will post picts in another post. I am not to sharp on computers and don,t want to lose this one
Thanks
Joe

Hello again
I am going to try to do photos.Attachment 104481Attachment 104482Attachment 104483Attachment 104484Attachment 104485

Pict of cleaning kit

RCS
Glad you enjoyed the post. Any one with thoughts on this rifle would be appreciated.
I don,t know much about them.
Thanks for your time
Joe

Joe, I am not an expert on these early 1903 rifles - but your Rock island s/n 27686 appears to be original to me. The Conrad Nelson 1908 cartouche
on a stock without cross bolts is very early and quite rare. I sent an email to John Beard about your post on this forum, Mr Beard is the expert on
these early Rock island rifles and I hope he will see your photos and post some comments.

RCS
I appreciate your effort .
Hope we find something out.

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Originally Posted by RCS

Joe, I am not an expert on these early 1903 rifles - but your Rock island s/n 27686 appears to be original to me. The Conrad Nelson 1908 cartouche
on a stock without cross bolts is very early and quite rare. I sent an email to John Beard about your post on this forum, Mr Beard is the expert on
these early Rock island rifles and I hope he will see your photos and post some comments.

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I agree! Can't wait for John's opinion, Ray

Ray here are some full picts. Hope this helps.

Here are a couple more picts

Thanks, can't tell if it has a stock cartouche in my photos, picture dark, also if you get a chance pls show the underside of the sight base which should not be solid., Ray

Ray the stock cartouche is hard to pick up on my camera. I have a decent pict of it in the first photos I posted.

Yes I see it, I missed it in the first photo thanks, it has the early correct 08 date. Now all you need is to show the split leg rear sight band to show it's overall correctness. Nice rifle and one of the very few still in existence remaining not updated. Congratulations, Ray

Ray can you please send me a pict of what you mean by a split leg rear sight band. I am sorry but I don,t understand.
Thanks

The rear sight base under the wood is not solid but open and is commonly referred to as split legs. See photo's # 2 and 10, of the base's on this thread.

Ray took me a while to strip the rifle as I have never done one before. I hope all of the veterans , especially my grandfather of WW1 and my dad of WW2. can forgive me. After a little youtube and some good hallow ground screw drivers I got it. I don,t think this thing had not been apart in forever. I hope these picts will do the job. I am missing the screw pin that goes through the bayonet ring and through the stock. The threads appear to be there so if I had one I think it would stay in. Please tell me where i can get parts.
Thanks for you patients
Joe

This one show the barrel marks better

Joe, You have a very early and I would say quite rare example of an original Rock Island 30-03 caliber barrel that was
re-chambered for the 30-06 cartridge. The barrel was cut back .20 inch for the 30-06 chamber and the rear sight was
also moved .20 inch as you can see the original sight base slot cut for the sight base pin.

RCS

RCS
Thanks much for the info. I see what you mean by the old pin slot.

I just noticed that you have a WW2 Smith-Corona M1903-A3 part on your bolt.

Joe that no bolt stock is in insane condition. No cracks in it that you can see?

togor
After taking the rifle apart i have been over it a lot and have found no cracks or problems with the stock

Your rifle, RIA S/N 27686, was manufactured at Rock Island Arsenal in 1906 as a 1905 Modification rifle in .30-'03 caliber. Your rifle may have been assembled at the time of manufacture or may have been turned into Ordnance Stores as unassembled parts. In either event, your rifle was turned into Ordnance Stores and was not issued.

Your rifle, or parts thereof, was pulled from Ordnance Stores in 1908, altered to .30-'06 caliber, assembled, inspected by Conrad Nelson, and issued. The alteration process required that the barrel be shortened by 0.2" at the breech end, re-chambered, and the rear sight base moved forward by a corresponding amount, leaving a visible notch in the bottom where the base was previously pinned. The stock was also shortened by a corresponding amount so that the knife bayonet would still fit. The stock was marked with an "S" on the fore end tip and the handguard was marked with an "S" at the back on top to indicate shortening. The original hole in the stock for the upper band screw was plugged and a new hole was drilled 0.2" rearward.

New sight leaves were fabricated having range graduations for the new .30-'06 caliber. The first leaves used the previous early style leaf which did not have the ridge on the back to keep the slide from coming off. Your rifle is fitted with one of those early leaves.

And finally, your rifle was altered in early 1908 before the rear stock bolt was added to reduce splitting.

Thanks for sharing. And Merry Christmas!

J.B.

p.s.,

I also note that the original bolt sleeve in your rifle has been replaced with a WWII M'03-A3 bolt sleeve.

I just want to thank every one for helping me with the rifle. I had no idea my Uncle had given me such an interesting surviving part of history. I shall educate my sons about it and pass it on. they love guns and will appreciate it also.
Thanks again and Merry Christmas

Joe

John's the best! Nice early rifle Joe. Probably assembled just before the 03 rifle went into regular assembly line production or possibly at the same time because of the serial number and 07 dated stock stamp. Ray

Joe how is the bore on the rifle? Ray