Army weapons officer stole £70,000 worth of guns from his base and sold them to collectors, court hears
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i think i will wait till the case is finished and those involved are allowed to tell thier side of the story.
i have a feeling the reality will be considerably less exciting than the newspaper article infers it to be.
It's the prosecution opening statement, which was clearly targeted at that level, and the press 'deadly assault rifles' hysteria.
It is one of the disadvantages of the British legal system that the defence comes much later, by which time the newspapers have probably got bored with it.
Wait until the defence puts its case, the summing up, and the verdict, which will paint a truer picture.
There are two sides to every story, all we have so far is trial by media.
I wonder if this has anything to do with the L98A1 Cadet GP rifles which (it was reported by owners were confiscated by the MOD police) from legal UK gun owners without any compensation.
I really do hope so, but I fear British firearms laws are very strict, and when involving military weapons much more so. I have exchanged several emails with Peter over the years and was honored to supply some reproductions (paper products and the like) I have made at his request to him. In fact, he owes me a beer which now I see is highly unlikely. Over the years he has been quite generous in supply this forum with materials and expert advice, all at no gain to himself. I could only wish this was not happening. I will continue to follow this trial and post the results to this forum. None of this in any way diminishes my respect for Mr. Laidler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by henry r
yeah, me too! newspapers just love to grab screaming headlines out of thin air!
Where is the word "allegedly" in the title of that story!!
Out of respect for the Captain I am sure most of us do not want to make conjecture on this situation, however I can imagine if the military did lose these firearms in suspicious circumstances but on THEIR OWN fault they would no doubt turn to put the blame on someone else in order to not look stupid.
We can only help it all goes well.
Doesn't alter my perception of the man one way or the other.
Here's a two finger salute to Fake News........
ditto warpig.
nijal i would be very surprised if anything was "lost" at all. i imagine all the relevant paper work was filled out and filed. all weapons parts were made in to non weapons parts as they were supposed to be.
any complete weapons that left the pattern room collection did so in circumstances favorable to the collection. etc.
i really struggle to believe that someone who has freely given so much for the betterment of the community and will help any random stranger that asks, would actively harm the very collection he is tasked with caring for. it just doesn't gel.
Personally I think the thread should be locked pending the outcome, which I am sure is going to be far less spectacular than the gutter press would have you believe. I notice they didn't publish the defence opening statement......................................... .................
Just let it develop and see what tripe/facts come out from the media no use saying or doing anything as we do not know anything to form an opinion about the case except I feel fairly certain our member will be vindicated hopefully to the point where they can instigate a law suit against those accusers so lets set ourselves to idle and see what we will see.
PL will not be able to say anything about it if at all even when its over but he has done so much good for all of us here sharing his hard earned/learnt knowledge.
Very well said Ron. We have all learned huge amounts from Peter over the years.
It's best we don't comment further regarding the on going precedings, but let's all wish Peter the very best of luck.
That the prosecution lays its case first is based upon the legal (not the media's) presumption of innocence. The defence only has to rebut the prosecution's case and offer wrongness of the charges. It is the prosecution that has to prove its case IF (a big 'IF") the legal system works as it was intended in the beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by David TS
I, for one, would like to see a running log, might help others in similar situations........or to avoid similar situations.
God speed to Mr. Laidler. I was very sad to see this notification, but as has been stated, I remain neutral until the outcome. I have nothing but a positive impression of Peter. The sad part is the amount of time and expense it takes to defend oneself. I suspect if courts in the U.K. are similar to the US, it will drag out for some time and great expense to Mr. Laidler?
As some of you were aware, we had a huge entrapment case in the US during our previous president’s term, where a ffl dealer was allowed to sell and deliver weapons to what turned out to be a Mexican intermediary. The whole case stunk as it was politics inserted into the legal system. I naively believed our Constitution protected us from such malfeasance.
Link to reference case: Fast & Furious
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/15533-obama-s-fast-and-furious-gun-running-scandal-grows
And let's not forget Randy Weaver and family, AKA "Ruby Ridge". An FBI setup from the jump!Quote:
Originally Posted by AmEngRifles
Russ
The UK news media fell over themselves to publish the accusations by the Crown when the case started over a week ago. Since then I have not been able to find a single story that gives a daily report of the proceedings, even though they are ongoing. Clearly they don't want any facts getting in the way of their sensationalized headlines!
Don't really have anything to add other than to wish Peter the very best of luck. And as stated above, none of this alters my perception of the man in the least...to express my honest opinion of "journalists" on either side of the pond would likely earn me the boot.
Latest news this morning.
Ex-soldier cleared of handling 'stolen' sniper rifle - BBC News
I do not know any of these gentlemen but wish them good luck with the remaining charges.
https://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/1...rearms-thefts/
I bet someone regrets opening this pandoras box!
Yes, now I am able to confirm that Not Guilty verdicts have been reached again all the charges where the Jury have reached a unanimous OR majority verdict. 4x smaller charges remain where the jury could not reach a decision. The prosecutors and Police must decide whether to ask for a re-trial on those remaining. But even this severe ar5e kicking might not temper their enthusiasm for this continuing 2 1/2 year long farce. I say no more
Well if its been proven again they should drop the case as it has been proven that the defendant is Not Guilty, sometimes I think the press are the ones that need their anal canals reamed and barbed wire inserted up there as a reminder to STFU. Sorry its brought out my sadistic side where all to often people are wrongly put infront of the firing squad and unable to say anything in their defence all the while the press pounds the place and pages with headlines and pictures taken at long range which I see as an intrusion of privacy I mean look at what happened over those long range shots of I think it was Princess Diana the press got roasted evrybody is equal they all eat & crap just the same as us underlings therefore we all deserve privacy. Thats my 15c's worth....Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Glad your back Peter now you can get back to helping all of us here again.
excellent news.
good luck to all on the rest of the charges.
Sadly with great experience surrounding Military Police practice, I have always been of the opinion that the MOD Police have always been "wanting" and lack "real and meaningful" investigative skills, and should stick to what they are good at, which is man guarding gates, their real purpose in life. They have always wanted to be real coppers!!
The times I have had to take over an enquiry from them, at a time when your own workload was massive, leaves me counting with both socks off and gloves off, its been that many times!!
This case shows their true incompetence, recognised by the Judge himself. He must have been so frustrated sending the jury in and out over matters of "incompetence" which would materially be held back from their ears, so that they could hear the facts, if there ever were any.
Anyway, great news for all of you, lets see what gets rightfully handed back in smart and timely fashion, and don't hold your breath, for the press report doing a rightful clearance piece, because you will be waiting a long time:mad:!!!
The stress you and your family have experienced can never be compensated................they should hold their heads in shame! Now no doubt they will chase the L96 one supposes as they get bored!
I can tell you that L96's in private hands are their new target, You mark my words and take on board what I say.............. Ignore that advice at your peril
Agreed.................however, similar to your circumstances with the Cadet, they would be bought in the full knowledge and correctly documented, over time, by the firearms dealers using the correct legislation current at the time, by the respective Police Force, in and by the Law as it stood at the time. If that system for recording firearms no matter how long ago it was bought, is wanting, surely, it is that system that needs urgent addressing to make it watertight not individuals!
It would simply be another own goal for the MOD Police if they went down that road, as it was the MOD that disposed of them in the first place, which again will be proved, with the usual outcome...................no case to answer.
Not "our collective" fault if they can't keep and retain disposal information, they appear to just want a scapegoat!
The danger of carrying out an investigation to prove what you think is that you fail to be objective and only select the parts of the evidence that supports your thesis.
The investigative Doctrine says ABC - Assume nothing, Believe nothing, Challenge everything
Had a proper investigation been carried out, it would clearly have saved a lot of time, money, energy and heartache for those found innocent.
Roy,
Agreed. This trial would have cost in excess of £3 Million pounds. That cost abstracted from the public purse is scandalous, at a time when there are so many other areas like the NHS that could have used those funds.
This case is a clear 7 PPPPPPP's. For those not blessed as ex Military that stands for:
Proper Planning & Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance
Had the MOD followed their own ethos this could have been avoided
I'll tell you one thing that there are competent gunsmiths out there that if one has enough cash can build a weapon every bit as good as the L96 I get so tired of the authorities barking at and chaining us to the ground over the Sniper Rifles my .308 APRS is a 1/3rd of a minute rifle repeatable if I do my stuff just as good as a sniper rifle but an L96 its not.
The govt's of the world should focus on stopping terrorism as the suckers don't need explosives now that drones are that cheap and readily available I know lets ban them!
Ours are exactly the same. They get promotion by arrests only so they have to arrest and convict. If they don't try they can't succeed. Therefore they bash onward with garbage arrests, day late and dollar short. Unfortunately they aren't blessed with the real instinct for the job, thus they're MP not federal or provincial police...and only some of them are any good at their job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
When they told us the MPs were investigating this or that, we'd just reply..."The keystone cops again"... Virtually all their investigations turned foolish as they presented them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
If only...............
The prosecution was criminal while the reason for the persecution is political.
David,
If there is no case to answer, regardless of the weapon, they go back to owner, its just that this is the MOD Police, they have probably lost them, as they can't label a carrot coming before the court correctly!!
Gil
I am being very guarded in my response, all I will say is that it is likely that no seized property will be returned to owners voluntarily unless a judge has given specific directions for its return, action has to be taken to recover it. That is fact of how cases work these days.
Wise words David. This non-home office type of 'police' force, lacking any form of oversight and grown-up accountable supervision really needs a totally independent and close examination.
Army base weapons theft jury unable to reach verdict - BBC News
Not guilty on all nine counts, a good ending for this trial.
Perhaps now they will give up and let those wrongfully persecuted get on with their lives besides I am pretty sure Peter would rather hang out here instead of a courtroom stuffed with idiots....
This is the state of play as at lunchtime on Thursday last......
Of the many counts and charges on the indictments
WITHDRAWN on order of the Judge early in the trial :1
Count 9, Rifle 000026, purchased
Not Guilty findings part way through on direction of the Judge :8
AB x3, RS x1, PLx1 + 3 associated with others
Not Guilty findings by Jury, unanimously :10
Counts 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 19
Not Guilty counts by Jury on 10:2 majority :2
Counts 14, 16; SP walks free
‘Firearms’/deactivated charges dropped after expert opinion :7
Total dismissed so far :28
Guilty verdicts 0
Police cannot accept defeat and ask for a re-trial on all charges where verdicts could not be reached by hung Jury
PL x4; Cts 2, 8, 15, 18 and 1x Deact
RS x1 Ct 3
AB 1 (magistrates Court only)
Aren't you glad it's not your £2.2M that they have spent? If you live in the UK, it is!!!
I am pretty sure we are all pulling for you Sir, and wish you the very best success in this action. Many of us in fact, but since we have nothing to add we have been quiet.
Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice springs to mind............................................so meone is after their pound of flesh and has just discovered that 'all that glisters, is not gold' !
Peter,
You know my views....................this is absolutely scandalous, shame there's not £2.2 to share amongst you guys and YOUR families for the untold stress this has caused!!
As ex Police Officers it shows us the weak points quite clearly in the system, and the Forces like the MOD who need a closer review by the HMI :(
The real irony is that only yesterday morning on Radio 4, the MoD Finance Committee and CGS, Lord Guthrie were lambasting the lack of funds available to the MoD. Yes....., real irony. And don't think that they will stop here. Others have been 'advised' It is known that they need a conviction here to set a precedence and will then set about the other owners that they in their sights
We can but imagine the stress you have been under this past few years Peter.
I sincerely hope that common sense is applied by someone regarding any possible re-trial ... It doesn't serve the public interest in any way whatsoever.
God save us from petty minded, pen pushing, vindictive civil bloody servants!
Very interesting question from a UK forumer who's name conveniently/at his request escapes me was 'were there any snakes in the grass' or '....save my own skin at any cost' surprises at the hearing? Yes...., two. A total fraudster who simply stated what he was told to say and the other, who simply stated what he was told to say. That is until they were recalled and before being heard and grilled for a second time, were asked whether they understood the meanings - and implications - of PERJURY.
That has a sobering effect on the inner consciousness as I am lead to understand
In a very recent case in the south east MOD plod/CPS tried to go ahead without entering ANY evidence!!!! (hope to tell a story to a easily swayed jury) the case was about deactivated weapons! That the proof house had inspected in 2017 and passed as legally deactivated,
Thankfully the judge saw through it and found the person not guilty (after 2 years)
Looks like MOD plod choosing what they want to believe yet again
If only someone would look at all the cases together......and see a pattern,
Good luck Peter
I have many friends who I got to know really well in CPS as a Police Officer.
They will all say, firearms law is a speciality and there are not many within CPS who take on trials involving any form of weaponry including deactivations., because it is so complex, and that extends to Barristers as well. Many go sick to avoid them!!!!
Many are so busy and swamped with files anyway, that they only get to see relevant papers a day of two before the trial, so can only read off the charges made against individuals at best, and hope the preparation teams in both the CPS and MOD in this case have it "banged to rights" and a clear cut trial.
The costs associated with a Magistrates hearing are high, but at Crown Court, the figures go through the roof, as other trials are put back and the list in the calender gets ever longer!! So for instance a 3 week trial would cost the tax payer at least £2 Million.
It is as clear as the nose on your face, that this trial has been terribly mis handled, and also clear that the evidence, for a senior person at CPS to call a trial in the first place, was just not there.
You can be assurred that there will be a lot of recrimination after the trial and onward as they look to pay the bills and return rightfully owned property.
The saddest thing in all of this is the PRESS!. They publish names and go out of their way to get photos of those involved and publish what they thought was a "done deal". What they then don't do, is at the end of the trial publish what the findings were in the same vigour.
It really pee's me off. The stress this has caused to all concerned and their respective families will linger for a long time, but encouraging to see the local press report the stories end accurately....................shame on the national tabloids yet again!:mad:
Unfortunately in this day and age of scandal sheet press and shoddy journalism, it seems that "innocent until proven guilty" is a thing of the past. At least for firearms charges. It is the same here in Canada. The papers are quick to publish photos and salacious stories, but rarely seem to publish retractions or apologies once proven wrong. There should be at LEAST as much front page press and TV news time given to announcements that the charges were inappropriate as there was to the news of the arrests to begin with.
In the Mick Shepherd case the BBC has already recorded the police's 'We are pleased that this man has been found guilty' interview in advance and accidentally broadcast the wrong one after he was acquitted.