M1 CARBINE OPINIONS/EXPERTISE NEEDED

Hello all.
I ran into a bit of an anomaly...at least for me!!! I want to point out first that my knowledge as far as collecting M1 Carbines goes is basically non-existent. I ran into this piece while purchasing another from the same gentleman.....I found it to be in remarkable condition. I was told by the owner that this was one of the German Police carbines that were used by them after the war in Europe, as I was questioning him about the silver soldered add-on rear sight on the breach.
I had been looking for a good original M1 for a while to be used as a shooter. I wanted something reliable to shoot while still holding a bit of collector value...most of all I was not interested in one of the post war builds. The condition of this one caught my attention...the barrel is a Underwood as marked and is in as new condition.....bore is simply beautiful. It appears that this rifle overall has seen very little use, .....stock is very nice....I guess a replacement. Parts including stock are numbers matching......I suppose these parts were re-numbered after the war in Germany?
I did look up the serial number and I came up with the rifle also being a Underwood built in July of '43. I understand that the recoil plate is a Rock-Ola and really doesn't fit the picture.

I would like to know more about this rifle in general.
Should this be a good reliable shooter as far as being assembled with original parts?
Who put these rifles together and were they known to do quality work?
Is there still some collector value for these altered M1's?
What would a conservative estimate of value be for this particular M1?
Should I remove the sight on the breach?...….although the finish will be compromised with the heat to remove it.


I want to wish all the Milsurp'ers a safe good holiday and a Happy New Year.

Above-all I want to thank Jim (browningautorifle) for posting the pictures for me to this thread....this thread would be meaningless without pictures and "again" Jim was eager to help me.

While we're waiting for Jim to post the pictures, here's a good link for info on your new Carbine. I haven't seen it yet, but would personally leave it just like it is. I believe the value has gone up a lot on these in the past few years. - Bob

http://bavarianm1carbines.com/

OK, I'm here with pics...have a look.

Last picture... Left of Bolt... On top of left Receiver rail shows the Tar like cover up coating that would have the markings of who used it in Germany/Bavaria.
IE: Rural police. etc.

USGI Bob's link (above) will keep you reading for a while.

This one below will show you the 'Odds and Ends' you seek answers to:

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

THx BAR for again being so helpful.

Bros, Thx for sharing this find. Ask away after reading the link. You can also type in a Search of Bavarians in our Search Feature in the upper right.
A Good Holiday to you also.

The standard rear sight is unusual, the rest I've seen had a serrated finish on the top of the rear sight area, I thought the dovetail had been removed completely. Apparently not. I guess there was a blank filler and it was serrated. Looks odd to have both sights there.

Being in the Yukon, you can't shoot any Carbine anywhere but a range(if you can get it on your ATT and your club is rated for restricted rifles.) due to 'em being restricted by the barrel length. Criterion makes an 18.75" barrel specifically for our market. Runs $337.99US(U.S. export permits required) and is available via Vulcan Gun Refinishing in Maidstone, Ontario. No idea what it costs. Vulcan Gun Refinishing
However, Bavarian Carbines have more collector interest, Stateside. The Mauser style rear sight was supposedly put on because the Game Wardens, etc. who got 'em were alleged to be more familiar with that type of sight. It really doesn't help increase the thing's value to change it either. Don't think it'd take much heat to remove though. The real issue is that you'd have no sight base for the original sight.

Yeah I'm well aware of the legalities regarding the discharge of a rifle in the restricted class up here in our over regulated country, Canada. I'm not interested in altering this rifle in any way (if purchased) to get it in the non restricted class, I'll leave it as is, the little investigating I've done, it seems there is a little niche collector market for these carbines. That being said, I'm trying to figure out is if these German/Austrian carbines will function as reliably as a regular WW2 carbine. Am I correct...…..these rifles are nothing more than a regular WW2 carbine that have had sights removed and replaced and a few identification stamps, etc., added?
As per browningautorifles observation...…...agreed.....I've not seen one with the added rear mounted breech sight while maintaining the standard rear sight. I've not seen many though...….

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Originally Posted by painter777

Last picture... Left of Bolt... On top of left Receiver rail shows the Tar like cover up coating that would have the markings of who used it in Germany/Bavaria.
IE: Rural police. etc.

USGI Bob's link (above) will keep you reading for a while.

This one below will show you the 'Odds and Ends' you seek answers to:

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

THx BAR for again being so helpful.

Bros, Thx for sharing this find. Ask away after reading the link. You can also type in a Search of Bavarians in our Search Feature in the upper right.
A Good Holiday to you also.

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Thanks painter 777...that link you posted was really informative.

That is all these carbines are. Standard carbines that have been through rebuilds in Germany and or Austria. The addition of the sight to the receiver/barrel area is not uncommon but most of the time the rear sight was removed and the dove tail was milled down with just some cross markings to help reduce glare. It does seem this one has some of that done on it but the dove tail was not milled all the way down and enough is still present so someone could add the rear sight to it again. Best of both worlds I guess.

Bros
Do you know if there is a 'Importers Stamp' just below the wood line on the left side of the Receiver ?
Here is a link with another member North of the Border asking about Value:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=60120

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Originally Posted by painter777

Bros
Do you know if there is a 'Importers Stamp' just below the wood line on the left side of the Receiver ?
Here is a link with another member North of the Border asking about Value:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=60120

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Not sure about the importers stamp....the rifle is a long way from me at the moment. I won't be able to answer that question till mid-Jan.
Thanks that was another informative link.....I confess I feel a little guilty about not doing my homework sometimes before starting threads...….but what the heck, if we didn't have any questions this site would cease to exist.

Quite alright,
I have about 3 weeks left while on the injured reserve list. So it gave me something to dig about. I spent the better part of the other day looking up history/link of a Colt .45 to a MD from WW1. Just to find out the owner was a previous owner. My fault for not reading the post and replies close enough. But found it interesting all the same.
Good Luck and Happy Holidays to you.

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Originally Posted by bros

I confess I feel a little guilty about not doing my homework sometimes before starting threads..

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

most of the time the rear sight was removed and the dove tail was milled down with just some cross markings to help reduce glare. It does seem this one has some of that done on it but the dove tail was not milled all the way down and enough is still present so someone could add the rear sight to it again.

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I thought so...thought they were usually milled down.

I have seen this carbine with the double rear sights before. Very easy to knock out the little "wafer" they slid into the dovetail. Then the standard rear sight can be mounted. Notch sight can be removed with a torch, as it is silver soldered on, but trick is to get all of the film of silver solder off, so the receiver can be touched up with Super Blue at worst, or repark the whole receiver at best.

Germans did NOT mill down the dovetail area, they roll serrated the top of it, and once the wafer is removed, the USGI sight is at the correct height. I've restored a few of these

I'd leave the notch sight in place as part of the history of the rifle. I don't see very many with that sight left intact. Back when CMP was selling Bavarian returns, some of the rack grades had the sights removed and all that was left was the ugly silver solder spot. I don't remember anyone posting that they received one with the notch sight.

DO NOT REMOVE THAT RECEIVER RING SIGHT! That adds a lot to the value of the Bavarian. Those sights are getting very scarce and add a lot to the value! If you need to remove a sight, get rid of the GI one. And try some paint remover on the left edge of the receiver bolt opening. You may find the markings for the German agency that had the carbine. Sometimes they are marked on the trigger guard or just in front of the trigger guard. If you find them, then we can tell you who had the carbine.

Thanks guys for all the input.
I agree....I will not remove the receiver mounted sight as I think it's integral to the history of this Bavarian carbine.
I've learned a fair bit about the Bavarian carbines since this thread was started. It seems like there is some collector interest in these so I'll leave it as is.
Again thanks to all!!!!!

Dear Bros, all the following comments are predicated on your statement that you wanted to have a shooter! I have no collecting expertise, but as somone who has on a couple of occasions won the BDMP-Hessen championship at 50 meters with such a carbine, I feel qualified to contribute some thoughts as to shootability.

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Originally Posted by bros

as I was questioning him about the silver soldered add-on rear sight on the breach.

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1) Are you really sure that the add-on sight was silver-soldered. I have, up to now, never seen a backsight that was silver-soldered onto either the barrel or the receiver. They have ALWAYS been soft-soldered, whereby the name "soft solder" is misleading. Unless you intend to hang a medium-sized automobile onto the backsight, silver-soldering would be a) a ridiculous overkill for strength* and b) would totally destroy the tempering of the receiver, also showing up as a discoloration of the heated parts. So I reckon it will be "soft-soldered".

*For a few years, until I found an original replacement, my SMLE MkV carried an M1917 backsight that was GLUED ON WITH PATTEX.

2) If you consider that the add-on backsight is a piece of it's history, then you can keep it - as long as it does not interfere with the sight picture through the aperture backsight. If you consider that it is just an unauthorized fudge, then remove it - and, as explained above, I think it will have been soft-soldered.

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Originally Posted by bros

I understand that the recoil plate is a Rock-Ola and really doesn't fit the picture.

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So what? It is a rebuild and you want a shooter. I am wary of the frequent desire of collectors to "restore" a rifle to its "original condition" - simply not possible, unless you can time-travel back to the day it left the factory - or "original configuration" - rather more plausible, but all too frequently just falsification - the first step on the road to faking and forgery!

PC; thanks for the elucidation on sight attachment - makes a lot of sense.

On my Bavarian, the rear sight is attached to the rear of the barrel, just in front of the forward edge of the receiver. It is attached with a gold colored metal that I believe is brazed. The rear G.I. sight was removed and the mounting area for it was untouched. Mine has a few other odd ball things that were done to it but it was an untouched G.I. carbine when the Germans got it, never having gone through rebuild. It still retains almost all its original parts.

Quote Originally Posted by bros View Post
as I was questioning him about the silver soldered add-on rear sight on the breach.
1) Are you really sure that the add-on sight was silver-soldered. I have, up to now, never seen a backsight that was silver-soldered onto either the barrel or the receiver. They have ALWAYS been soft-soldered, whereby the name "soft solder" is misleading. Unless you intend to hang a medium-sized automobile onto the backsight, silver-soldering would be a) a ridiculous overkill for strength* and b) would totally destroy the tempering of the receiver, also showing up as a discoloration of the heated parts. So I reckon it will be "soft-soldered"

Not sure if they were silver soldered, that's what I've been told though.
Agreed.....why would they use silver solder? How would they stop the temper of the steel from changing (I know when silver soldering parts being mated, basically materials being joined have to be cherry red)

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Originally Posted by bobg

On my Bavarian, the rear sight is attached to the rear of the barrel, just in front of the forward edge of the receiver. It is attached with a gold colored metal that I believe is brazed.

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That could well be brazing, but note that it is on the barrel, not the receiver! As a generalization - i.e. not a lwa written in letters of gold on a mighty slab of granite set atop a high mountain - just a generalization - barrels are effectively a high-quality mild steel and are not hardened by heat treatment. But receivers often use materials such as nickel-steel alloys that are quite touchy about heat-treatment, and any tempering would be lost at brazing temperatures.

So, as a generalization, one may say: barrels can be brazed, but receivers should not be brazed - not even hard-soldered.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

barrels are effectively a high-quality mild steel and are not hardened by heat treatment

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I don't want to turn this into something...but I know M1 rifle barrels went through a heat process and had to be straightened after coming out of the ovens...and when I worked on #4 Lee Enfield barrel shanks, the first six inches or so seemed definitely harder than the front end. Now as for heat treating, I don't know how much is how much so...

But not disagreeing with what you're saying about brazing or heating...

Jim
MERRY EXMAS EVERY ONE.

Here is one I just pic up not to long ago. you can see what is in the dove tail. I think if you look very close to your parts they mite be all G.I. out of the factory parts except what the Germans have changed the rear sight. The one I have is also out of the G.I. factory parts. The stock I have on mine was made in Germany. Very well made stock & hand guard. I'm just putting a long barrel on it. Barrel is from mateo97. & still have the original barrel for it.

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Originally Posted by bobg

On my Bavarian, the rear sight is attached to the rear of the barrel, just in front of the forward edge of the receiver.

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Hi Nigerian Bobbie !!

I've never seen or heard of one reported with the rear sight on the barrel.
I have other questions, but first thought is we need to find someone near you that can take pictures.
I'll be interested in hearing Jim Mocks thoughts about this one.
It may need to be reported to him.... after the Holiday.
But...... We'll need pictures.

Merry Christmas Buddy :thup:

Ok, I read through this once, but didn't remember that I once had an NPM Bavarian with the exact same setup as the Underwood in this thread. My dovetail had been serrated and while the sight on top of the breech was gone, the evidence of its former location was still evident. Also, I bet the Underwood in this thread used to have Bavarian Rural Police on the left rail, until it was scrubbed off at some point.

Del D,
Page 1 Reply 3 the pictures of the OPs' Underwood. Look at the first and last pictures. You can see it still has that Black Tar coating on the top of the receivers left side.
Exactly whats under it, not known yet, but most likely how you describe.

Merry Christmas to the TN Gang !

[QUOTE=gunsdora;444251]Jim
MERRY EXMAS EVERY ONE.

Here is one I just pic up not to long ago. you can see what is in the dove tail. I think if you look very close to your parts they mite be all G.I. out of the factory parts except what the Germans have changed the rear sight. The one I have is also out of the G.I. factory parts. The stock I have on mine was made in Germany. Very well made stock & hand guard. I'm just putting a long barrel on it. Barrel is from mateo97. & still have the original barrel for it

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Merry Christmas Gunsdora, your pics aren't coming through...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Merry Christmas Gunsdora, your pics aren't coming through...

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They were there but don't seem to stay ???. That is 2 times I put them up.

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Bob thanks for putting them pics back up. I think you did that before for me. I have no idea what I am doing wrong.

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Any one know why some of my pics don't stay up ???.

Only thing I can think of is to make sure you hit "preview post" before "submit reply." If they don't all show up, maybe there's a limit to how many can be in a single post. I copied your file data from an email notification that came early this morning. I thought I had all of them in there, too - but only about half of them got posted. :dunno: - Bob

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Originally Posted by painter777

Del D,
Page 1 Reply 3 the pictures of the OPs' Underwood. Look at the first and last pictures. You can see it still has that Black Tar coating on the top of the receivers left side.
Exactly whats under it, not known yet, but most likely how you describe.

Merry Christmas to the TN Gang !

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Merry Christmas to you too, Charlie!

So, is that rear sight dovetail filled and then serrated? I see stake marks.

Hi Jim
I thought them pics you put up was your carbine. I guess I should read the post better.

They are just a wedge & must be put in & off just like the G.I. rear sight . Then I would guess the top is serrated then stack. This one I took off a carbine . Still had the writing on the front of the receiver . Will put pics if I can find it.

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Originally Posted by deldriver

Ok, I read through this once, but didn't remember that I once had an NPM Bavarian with the exact same setup as the Underwood in this thread. My dovetail had been serrated and while the sight on top of the breech was gone, the evidence of its former location was still evident. Also, I bet the Underwood in this thread used to have Bavarian Rural Police on the left rail, until it was scrubbed off at some point.

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On the return to my hometown I will check the rifle out and hopefully be able to post what I found underneath the black tar/paint on the receiver rail.

You will probably find nothing there or very little . The ones I ever seen markings were grinded off. then they covert it with black paint.

I've only been present when 2 of these were having the Tar like coating being removed. Both owned by the same guy who used (IIRC) Lacquer Thinner that Wrinkled up the Black enough for him to wipe and scratch it away.
One clearly revealed the full markings of: Bavaria Border Police. With what looked to be the 'Original Finish' still intact.
The other had remnants of a name, but couldn't be made out. It had been ground on, which removed most of the agency name and all the Original Finish.

bros,
If you try Lacquer Thinner to remove the Black......
Let me know how or if it works.
Good Luck
Be Safe on the roads

Charlie-P777

For cleaning metal surfaces ranging up to actually removing paint... I start gently with rubbing alcohol, then mineral spirits (usually labeled paint thinner) on a rag - then go to lacquer thinner, which will remove some kinds of paint (with elbow grease on your part...) then finally go to acetone, a universal solvent which should soften and eventually remove almost any paint except epoxy based stuff... All of the above with a rag, changing sides as dirt/paint accumulates on the rag - and always in a ventilated situation. Remember as well, if you're not familiar with acetone - the stuff is volatile - so no open flame nearby when you're working with it... I try to avoid paint strippers since they can damage underlying surfaces at times...

Most of what I know about removing dirt, tape residue, some kinds of paint was learned working around fiberglass boats, fishing rods, and reels where you're trying to remove foreign matter without damaging what's underneath... Working on firearms with these kind of solvents - be sure to remove any wood or plastic stocks first since the solvents will attack many finishes.

Hope this helps

'but receivers should not be brazed - not even hard-soldered.'

Hard-soldering IS brazing. Soft-soldering is what you do on copper pipe with various alloys of soft metal like tin and even silver. Can't use lead on plumbing pipe anymore but there's still a load of it out there. Even if this solder contains silver, it is not silver-soldering, which requires about twice the temperature of soft-soldering, with iron and steel getting 'orange-hot'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder#Solder_alloys

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

Hard-soldering IS brazing.

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SEE:
1 Soldering and Brazing
2 Hard soldering or Silver soldering

Soldering - Wikipedia