Model 1870 Springfield Trapdoor (Revision 2)

Hello, I was looking at this rifle today and have waited to buy while I find out about this rifle. First, the price was 499 US dollars. Looking at reloading parts, brass dies bullets powder and such will add about 300 more dollars. The rifling was shiny not pitted hammer and striking parts looked ok. If someone could help me with what I should look at to find more info. I would appreciate the help. I do shoot a few old milsurps and a 45-70 black powder rifle so the genre is not new to me. It is a nice long barrel 50-70, trap door that looks like it could be fun. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks and Merry Christmas

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Originally Posted by Entry Level

Hello, I was looking at this rifle today and have waited to buy while I find out about this rifle. First, the price was 499 US dollars. Looking at reloading parts, brass dies bullets powder and such will add about 300 more dollars. The rifling was shiny not pitted hammer and striking parts looked ok. If someone could help me with what I should look at to find more info. I would appreciate the help. I do shoot a few old milsurps and a 45-70 black powder rifle so the genre is not new to me. It is a nice long barrel 50-70, trap door that looks like it could be fun. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks and Merry Christmas

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After doing some research I see this is not an easy question to answer. I will get back to the rifle with tape measure and camera and continue looking into this myself. I am still looking for comments. Thanks.

What exactly is your question?

I will look at the rifle again and get any numbers and length that will help identify correctly this weapon. I like large cartridge rifles but don't want to buy something cobbled together. Will also take pictures. If it is authentic the price seems reasonable. Thanks

The barrel should be 36 5/8" long any shorter and it's an old Bannermann cut down one. The 1866 Allin was a redesign of the 1865 model with a better extraction system. The rifles were essentially model 1861 rifled muskets rebarreled with the trapdoor mechanism and converted lock plates. The stocks, lock plates, butt plates and bands are recycled from civil war muskets and should be marked as such with production dates between 1861 & 1865. The trap door should be marked 1866. There were 25,000 1866 Allin's produced at Springfield Armory.
In 1867 Buffalo Bill used one of these to achieve his nickname while contracted to the Kansas Pacific Railroad to provide their meat.

I was wrong on just about everything except the caliber. It is a model 1870 Springfield 50-70. It is centerfire and the extractor and ejector function correctly. It has a blade and post fixed sight and correct cleaning rod. Bayonet included. I could not find a serial number. US stamped by screw on butt plate. Crisp action. Could not find any marks on stock except wear from use. The plate on the right has Springfield,1863 and an eagle engraved on it. All screws look unworked. The barrel is slightly longer than 29 inches with two bands. The bore is shiny. It came with brass, dies and bullets and an old cartridge pouch. It has Model 1870 stamped just behind the action. I read if the word model is used with 1870 it is a later model. So after going back to look at it again I bought it and now am waiting to pick it up. I plan on shooting this rifle so if there is a reason I shouldn't let me know. Thanks and Merry Christma

Is it a trapdoor or a rolling block? There were both models known as the model 1870.

It is a Trapdoor

Ok that's the Army model. The Navy was issued the model 1870 Remington rolling block.

If you do buy it come up the the Muzzle loader black powder club in Piru. Plenty of help there for you. burbankmuzzleloaders.com

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Originally Posted by Entry Level

The bore is shiny.

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Wow, you never see that.

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Originally Posted by Entry Level

The barrel is slightly longer than 29 inches with two bands.

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That is far too short for a proper rifle. Which makes one fear a cut-down. BUT it is about right for a Model 1869 Cadet rifle - which is actually rarer!
Please post good photos of the entire rifle, with detail photos of the action and any markings. The lack of a serial number is disturbing. And make a careful measurement of the barrel length!

Thanks I will. I went to the public range a lot when Mike was there even came to a turkey shoot with you guys. Good reason to go back. Thanks

Some 50 cal Cadet rifles were chambered for the 50 Carbine which has a cartridge case of 1.75 inches while other rifle were chambered for the 50-70. If the 50-70 cartridge is too long you should have a cadet rifle. The 50 carbine was also used in Remingtons and Sharps carbines.

I posted a photo of a few old US 50 cal cartridgesAttachment 98125

Sorry, but the above post #14 is not entirely accurate. The only SA-made Cadet rifle with a short chamber was the scarce M1867 Navy rolling block. The other cadet models of 1867 and 1869, as well as the M1870 Carbine, had full-length chambers but used reduced loads. Also, it is the full-length .50-70 which has the 1.75" case - the .50-45 case for the Cadet (and the Remington-produced Navy Carbine) is shorter, and at least two variants are known. All these items are shown in my book, measured from examples in my personal collection.

Update for 1870 Trapdoor Springfield 50-70. I installed a new replica rear sight and a replacement original firing pin. Now I have a shooter. Loaded 10 rounds and had successful time at range. Will load again and shoot military benchrest match. It's totally fun to shoot this old beauty.

We need to see pictures! "Model 1870" would NOT normally appear on a Model 1869 cadet rifle, which this seems to be.

This is one of those truly frustrating threads. The original poster has, despite several requests, never had the courtesy to post pictures. Along the way, he has been given advice ranging from ludicrous to quite accurate. He MIGHT have one of the 20 (yes 20!) M1869 Cadets assembled by SA long after the model had been discontinued, and whose true features are in some doubt, even among the experts. It would be nice to know, but, I suspect we never will.

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Originally Posted by Dick Hosmer

The original poster has, despite several requests, never had the courtesy to post pictures.

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Dick, one gets sadly used to the "I've got an old gun, what is it?" queries that are never followed up by proper information.

However, one perseveres for the sake of those who are seriously in search of knowledge and prepared to interact usefully with the rest of us.

Here are some pictures. 1870 trapdoor, no serial number, 50-70. Not a conversion.