P17 Winchester

Today I went to Austria on a business trip, and while getting back home in the evening I thought about going to my gun shop for powder and primers.
While there and chatting, they received a telephone call from a guy asking for milsurps, which they lately never have.
The shop owner answered that he had a grade B Carl Gustafs, a grade A Steyr and a grade A P17.
The guy was not interested, but I started smiling, so the shop owner asked me if I was smiling for the P17.
Yessir!
So he took it out.
It is a Winchester and in good condition, but I was so surprised that I did not check it thoroughly. The barrel is marked 0-18, which I guess is a 10-18.
There are a few flaming bombs here and there. On the barrel and? I can’t remember...
Didn’t look at the serial number:banghead:
The barrel is great. Trigger good.
He looked at his armourer and asked what price they should make for good old Ovidio....
600 € was the answer.
Eddistone normally run here for 800 plus. Even up to 1200.
Winchester I don’t even know.
I told him to put it aside for me and that I would come back and take it in February (kids dentist next week:yikes:).
What should I really thoroughly check to see if it is a valuable Winchester rifle?
I’m already happy just for the general condition, but if it also were a collectible one...

It'll say Winchester right above the serial number.

All the little bits are labeled with the first letter of the maker (W, E, or R). In these parts, it's uncommon to find one all matching. In fact, I turn my nose up at the matching ones because someone likely changed out parts to get it that way.
Since this rifle is still "over there" (or close) maybe it was never rebuilt and things will match.

600 Euros converts to about $690 USD. That's a pretty decent price for a Winchester even here.
Nice score!

This isn't your first rodeo cowboy so you know what basics to check. For Model 1917 specifics check under the barrel at the end of the stock it should be marked with a W like all the other parts of the rifle. If no marking or a different letter it's been replaced. The rear sight should be numbered to match the serial number on the receiver. As well as the bolt and barrel. Cartouches should be clear and visible throughout. It should be cock on closing, if not someone swapped in a speed lock which is an aftermarket cock on opening lock assembly. If your lucky it will have an oiler and cleaning kit in the butt, most likely not though.
With a 10/18 manufacture date odds are it never actually saw combat as it took an average of about 2 months for them to reach the front lines and the war was over by then. That doesn't mean it wasn't issued just that it wasn't soaked in mud in the trenches. Winchester's are the lowest number production of the 3 manufacturers and considered the most accurate.
That price is a steal, grab it if it's in decent condition. Best of luck!

You do know that the world has ended as you called it a P17? (love it, we know what you speak of)

The rear sight is not serial numbed on the US made guns. It will have a couple of R, W or E on the various pieces.

As noted you know the drill, all the devil is in the details. Winchester is only more desirable as fewer of them, nothing special about that past the lower made numbers.

And until you take it down, you don't know what you have. Not likely pure. A lot of the marks you can see on the bolt, striker, coking piee, sight (3) etc as for what mfg.

You would have to guess that its a combat rifle (not likely but some US troops were actually issued those) Free French were given a lot.
Not likely to be shot out (not sure what shooting is allowed there?) Bolt may have an SN on it.

Probably impossible to buy gun parts from US to make it pure if not.

Nice would be a Throat Erosion reading, you need a gauge for that. Low cost one in US but not sure if its worth it?

The British world knows it is the P17 to differentiate from the P14.

Ovidio-- It sounds like the Winchester may be a late production rifle from the barrel date. The first 10,000 or so Winchesters had a compatibility problem and General Pershing, the US AEF commander requested that no Winchesters be sent to Europe due to compatibility issues. It seems that Winchester jumped the gun and started production of the M1917 without using approved blueprints from the US Army Ordnance Department. Compatibility was achieved by January 1918 but the damage was done. The general idea was that each US soldier in the National Army (non- Regular & National Guard Division Troops) would have two M1917 rifles available to him. One that he would personally use and an operational readiness float in event his rifle should be damaged, lost or destroyed. The Winchester M1917 usually bring a 30% added premium here in the US. I recently saw a Rebuilt WWII Winchester with a rough bore sale for $900.00 US.
Enjoy your new rifle.

So, shall I call it Model 1917 or P17?
You English speaking guys are fairly complicated:lol:

It's official name when adopted,

US Rifle, Caliber .30, Model of 1917

That should help add to your confusion.
Although based on the British Pattern 14 Rifle there is no P in the real name of the US version.

Call it P17!!
Why? Because everyone knows what you mean and no babies will perish if you do!

The people in the factories who made the things called them P17s cuz it made sense and everyone knew what they were talking about!

Is New York city officially called "The Big Apple"?!! No! But, everyone knows what you're talking about when you say it!!

Need more!?
M1 Gun, 03, Ought 3, American Enfield, Hitlers Buzzsaw, P17!!!.... you get the idea...

Sounds like you were at the right place at the right time.
Please post many pictures when you get it!

I’ll do. I have to bide my time for a while, but it’s been put aside for me.
Concerning the name, I’ll call her Lazy Suzy:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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So, shall I call it Model 1917 or P17?

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I suspect we have have what in the US we call Purists. They believe it has to be exactly as it was noted (US Rifle, Caliber .30, Model of 1917) and hell will fall on your head if you don't.

Ferris who wrote the definitive book on the 1917 thought so. He did an incredible job (its worth buying)

I don't agree. Interesting and love for the gun is what counts.

So, P17 is fine

1917 is fine (there are other 1917 model US equipment items so it can be confusing.

1917 Enfield is fine (and was used in one of the US manuals on the gun!)

30-06 Enfield and a host of other slang terms.

Model of 1917 is fine.

It has nothing to do with being a purist it has everything to do with calling it what it is which is a US Model of 1917. It simply is what it it is. Ever hear anyone call a P-14 a Model 1914? The answer is no because it's not. If you sincerely have an interest in the history and historical context of a piece of military equipement it's very simple to use its correct designation.

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Originally Posted by twh

It has nothing to do with being a purist

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Well...we all knew exactly what rifle he was speaking of immediately...

C'mon my friends, I didn't want to ignite a discussion.
Here we all know these rifles as either P17 or P14.
Almost no-one ever calls them in any other way.
The important thing is understanding each other.
Peace & Love
:lol::lol::lol:

Ovidio: The Ferris book ("United States Rifle Model of 1917") is a must have- very detailed. Regarding what to look for on the gun, my understanding is that neither barrel nor bolt are serial numbered from the factory. The degree of originality comes down to the key parts having stamps that confirm Winchester origin. This is what I glean from the book- I only own one M1917, an all original (probably) Eddystone and it has no serial on barrel or bolt. Sounds like you're onto a good deal!

Ridolpho

Thanks. It looks good and my gun dealer is normally reliable. I don't think he would cheat on me when I buy so much from him regularly.
I'll check if I can find that book at a decent price.

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C'mon my friends, I didn't want to ignite a discussion.
Here we all know these rifles as either P17 or P14.
Almost no-one ever calls them in any other way.
The important thing is understanding each other.
Peace & Love

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Dang, half our fun is fighting over this stuff.

However, in deference to Ovidio, I will call a cease fire.

You’re a good guy!:lol:

Thank you, I think more as respectful. Someone calls a time out on his post and that is good enough for me.

My wife says my family discusses things pretty intensely!

I got her now!!!
Nice...
I helped these guys from the gun shop in some business with Austrian companies, so they gave me the rifle, RCBS dies, 50 rounds of 30-06 and the Lee trimmer for 450€.
I’m really delighted.
I also immediately measured the max. cartridge length with my S&B 180 grs. FMJBT bullets (84,9 mm) and set the dies at 84,4 (I’m listening to you Patrick;-D).
I really hope to have time for the range next Saturday...
Attachment 99374Attachment 99375

Looks nice and clean...very nice.

:thup:

Very nice. You now have 2 new favorite range toys!

I guess so:lol::lol::lol:

Ovidio, that looks like a really good rifle! Looking forward to seing the first results!

Just reloaded 20 rounds.
45 grs of Lovex and S&B 180 grs FMJBT ball.
OAL 84,4-84,5 mm.
I’ll compare them with the commercial ammo.
Fully resised scrounged cases. 12 Hornady and 8 Fiocchi.
All trimmed to specs.

Got her to the range twice already.
Good, but not yet anything to brag about.
I really must get some experience with the aperture sight again.
Until now, after the Army time, I have shot aperture sights less than once a year.
Will catch up now with this babe.

Range day with the Winchesters.
I’m quite happy...

First 5 shots at 100 meters with the P14...
Attachment 99869

First 8 shots at 200 meters with the Model of 1917:D
Attachment 99870

Between the bulls eye and the smaller red dots it’s just 3”.
I mixed things up a bit, because I could not interrupt the others every ten shots, but it’s been a very nice range day!

Very Fine Shooting Sir. Nothing wrong with those results! My Winchester is my Favorite Bolt Rifle.

Yesterday I brought the old warhorse out again.
Same reload as Patrick suggested me. OAL 84,7, not .5 as written there.
Low light due to stormy weather, so I needed three rounds to get to where the rifle naturally tends to.
The highest was round no. 1, then the second highest was the second and the third was the nine at 11’o clock.
After that, I had a really satisfying group.
Did not last long, because it started pouring, so I stopped.
But I’m really pleased that I’m starting to get used to the aperture sights!

very beautiful group! tomorrow is the WWI armistice and we make a commemorative shooting at my local range.
My WIN.Model of 1917 is ready...Best regards

Nice grouping Ovidio on all the targets.:thup:

By crikey I had better start calling my Blackbird by it's correct title ~ The 2003 Honda 1100XX Super Black Bird lest I get chastised by #12 TWH!

The day of commemoration was very nice between passionate shooters. The foggy weather did not give me a good result at 100m, but I think that in November 1918 it had to be worse.
RegardsAttachment 103723Attachment 103724Attachment 103725

Nice rifle!!! And very interesting range!
In any case, the enemy would have been drilled all right. So, mission accomplished once more!

"So, shall I call it Model 1917 or P17?"

"Elena", "Tesoro".........??

Hahahaha....
You’re a bad guy, Bruce:lol:
I decided to call her With a whistle, just in case:D:D:D

Excellent Ovidio! Now here's a useful dodge for people (like me) who don't like filing around on original rifles.

The M1917 backsight is limited by the crude "notch" steps... go one step higher, and you shots will be way up in the black.
Or try holding the foresight blade higher, and it suddenly disappears into the black, and you get the "letterbox slot" effect of vertical stringing.
So what can you do?
Someone is bound to appear soon and suggest that you get a higher foresight blade and start filing it down to get it just right.

The only trouble with this advice is that the sight picture, i.e. your POA relative to the POI, will change as soon as you make any alteration to the load OR, quite simply, the light changes, OR shoot at a different distance (say 300 to 100m or vice versa).
So you really need a fine-tuning of the backsight slider WITHOUT altering the rifle.

The answer is a blob of Blu-Tack, discreetly applied to hold the slider firm enough for shooting, but not making any permanent alteration to the rifle. This lets you wiggle the slider a bit up or down and fix it without it jumping into the next notch.

It is also a good idea to file up a little piece of metal scrap to act as a simple reference gauge, so that your best setting is repeatable if it is disturbed, or you want to try out different ammo. Or different distances. Very handy if you shoot, for instance, at both 100m and 300m.

And if you want to participate in a competition where the Blu-Tack is not permitted, simply peel it off, and reapply afterwards, with the help of the home-made reference gauge.

Give it a try!
Patrick