looking to buy 2 garands, need help

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03-21-2009, 06:13 PM
rudy05

6 Attachment(s)

looking to buy 2 garands, need help

good afternoon. the 2 m-1's shown are in my sights as a possible purchase and need some advise as to price range and the authenticity of the stocks. they are clean and seem to be in excellent condition. one is a 1943 and other is a 1944. op rods are uncut with all the parts correct to the best of my knowlege. stock on the 43 has a small ord wheel on the heel of the pistol grip where the 44 does not have one. both serifed p's are in the circle. barrel dates are within the 0-3 month range. its the cartouche's on the stocks. have the chance to get both foe 1,500.00 ea. your opinions please. thank you.
03-21-2009, 06:21 PM
Bill Hollinger

They look good however the darker of the two looks like it has been dipped in lead and has a repop rear sight knobs. Because of the color differences between the parts I would say they are put-togethers. Hard to tell with the pictures you have posted.
03-21-2009, 07:11 PM
rudy05

answer

mr. hollinger, i forgot to mention that they are restorations. i realize that origionals if found are very costly. a restoration at least to and for me is a representation of what we used. not saying i know all but, can you say that a arsenal rebuild is sort of a restoration or a garand found with much of the correct parts is also the same when the rest of the parts are added to make it correct? i am pretty much sure of the metal but, it is the stampings on the stocks i am concerned with. a friend has these and both bought in the mid 80's. if the wood is no good the price comes down.
03-21-2009, 07:22 PM
Calif-Steve

I would get 2 nice SG's from CMP for that money.
03-21-2009, 08:35 PM
U.S.G.I.

I agree with Steve that's a lot of money...
03-21-2009, 09:18 PM
rudy05

sg's

sorry for the igorance but, sg's??? all i want guys is a good look at the wood. is it good????
03-21-2009, 09:42 PM
blu 97

CMP Service Grade
03-21-2009, 10:35 PM
U.S.G.I.

Stock

Rudy if you want advice on the stocks you need to take more pictures. Get close up on the cartouches. Take at least three pictures per side in good quality light. There are a lot of good people here if you give them photos that they can judge by.

Semper Fi...
03-21-2009, 11:18 PM
Rifleman 7.62 NATO

$1500.00 way too much.
03-21-2009, 11:25 PM
ihcfan55

Stocks look fine to me.

The pic is not that great, but the stocks look fine to me. --- GWB
03-22-2009, 12:28 AM
M1Riflenut

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihcfan55

The pic is not that great, but the stocks look fine to me. --- GWB

I'll agree. The pics are not the best for a detailed analysis
but "from a distance" they look good.
I honestly would not dare say if the price of $1500 each is good or bad. There is alot that goes into determining the value of a firearm and you really have given very little info to make a sound judgement.
While you have seen them in hand and know the condition,the pics do not tell us much,for instance:

Is the wood solid and free of repairs?

Has the wood been sanded and are there overhang issues anywhere?

Are ALL parts correct,down to and including screws and pins?

Are there any rebuild marks on the receiver legs?

Are the receiver stampings all clear or washed out from an arsenal sandblast/refinish?

Are the barrel stampings crisp or washed out from blasting/refinish?

Chamber's in the white?

Gas pads chromed?

Bore condition,end readings?

If your not the CMP or one of the few highly regarded dealers/authors then what you need are high quality,close up and in focus pictures of every part and marking. Quality pics,and lots of them,are what sells a good rifle,and what one needs to determine if the rifle is worth the asking price. IMHO,1500 is not unrealistic for a very good quality WW2 rifle,even a restoration,but it is the upper limit so it should'nt have any issues at all.
http://s14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...nut/SA%2018847
03-22-2009, 01:32 AM
WW2GURU

Those front handguards look like boyds to me at least on the bottom rifle. There have been many stock cartouche stamps made up and sold on ebay. Those markings look very fresh. If they are saying the stocks are vintage then i would question that.
03-22-2009, 06:40 AM
U.S.G.I.

Nice looking pictures M1Rifleut. Your next project should be to build a light box to take pictures in.:thup:

Jeff
03-22-2009, 09:55 AM
Kirk

$1500 each is too much for the scant detail in the pics provided. They may be OK but you can't tell that from the pics provided. Ask seller for more & detailed photos. As stated elsewhere, be particually suspicious of the stocks; many fakes are out there. Make a 3-day inspection period part of the deal. If he declines, then look elsewhere. Get some reference books so you can verify the correctness of the parts. Post pics here (that you take, once you receive them) & let members comment.
03-22-2009, 12:50 PM
rudy05

7 Attachment(s)

43 garand

sn 1969xxx
rear sight- type 2
trigger housing 12
safety 6 w/ hole
hammer- 3
follower- 11
follower arm- no bevel
follower arm- 3 piece
bullet guide- solid no cuts
op rod- 6 uncut
barrel date- 9-43 no chrome
solid pin upper band
narrow base gas cylinder, lock will go to 11 o'clock and will take it back to 6 to lock in place
bolt-12 flat pin
hope pictures tell the rest.
03-22-2009, 01:55 PM
rudy05

6 Attachment(s)

1944 garand

sn-2748xxx
rear sight- type 3
bolt-12 flat pin
safety- sa11
hammer- 7
follower- 12
follower are- no bevel
bullet guide- no cuts
follower rod- 3 piece long fork
op rod- uncut 9
solid pin upper band
gas cylinder- wide platform
barrel date- 3-44
clip latch- appears to be flat end
gas cylinder lock goes to 9 o'clock, bring down to 6 to lock in place
lock screw- popet
the stock has a faint serifed p in the circle and an S in the barrel channel.
stock furrel has the large hole.
these are RESTORATIONS which is fine with me and the 44 has sa 2-65 scratched in the leg of the receiver which indicates a rebuild.
hope the pictures tell the rest of the story if i left anything out. (the barrel is excellent and was refinished to it origional color.
03-22-2009, 03:17 PM
U.S.G.I.

Two M1 Rifles

Rudy like you said these are restoration rifles. 90% of the parts are correct for these rifles some are not. These rifles aren't bad for a restoration but far from being very collectible rifles. Having been rebuilt and reparked will take down the value also. Let me ask you what do you want to do with these M1's? If your wanting all correct rifles these are not totally correct. If you want WWII rifles yes they are. In my opinion you can buy better rifles for $1500.00 then what you are getting. Sorry but that is how I feel.

Do you have any M1's at the present time?

Can you buy from CMP?

Jeff
03-22-2009, 08:36 PM
rudy05

Quote:

Originally Posted by U.S.G.I.

Rudy like you said these are restoration rifles. 90% of the parts are correct for these rifles some are not. These rifles aren't bad for a restoration but far from being very collectible rifles. Having been rebuilt and reparked will take down the value also. Let me ask you what do you want to do with these M1's? If your wanting all correct rifles these are not totally correct. If you want WWII rifles yes they are. In my opinion you can buy better rifles for $1500.00 then what you are getting. Sorry but that is how I feel.

Do you have any M1's at the present time?

Can you buy from CMP?

Jeff

jeff-- i dont understand what you mean by "if i'm wanting all correct rifles they are not totally correct. but, if i want ww2 rifles yes they are."
as for others-- have a dcm with papers, a 4.2 jlg which is correct, m1d no papers, ihc all correct, sa 45, sa 41, brit lend lease, 42 which needs a emcf stock, and the 2 posted.
03-22-2009, 08:53 PM
U.S.G.I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudy05

jeff-- i dont understand what you mean by "if i'm wanting all correct rifles they are not totally correct. but, if i want ww2 rifles yes they are."
as for others-- have a dcm with papers, a 4.2 jlg which is correct, m1d no papers, ihc all correct, sa 45, sa 41, brit lend lease, 42 which needs a emcf stock, and the 2 posted.

Hi Rudy,
There are rifles that are all original (parts that came with rifle as it was manufactured). These are the most desired Rifles.
There are correct rifles these are (rifles put back together the way they came off the manufacturing line).
You can have a all WWII rifle but all the parts are not correct for that serial number.
The rifles you are looking at don't have all the correct parts for that serial number but they are all WWII parts.
Does this help explain it?

Jeff
03-22-2009, 09:05 PM
Dan In Indiana

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

They look good however the darker of the two looks like it has been dipped in lead and has a repop rear sight knobs. Because of the color differences between the parts I would say they are put-togethers. Hard to tell with the pictures you have posted.

Had one of those 44MB's a long time ago. Bought it off a friend who got it at a DNR auction, they got it from the Army. Lordy that thing was fun, had to order a replacement cab for it, installed an after market heaterto keep from freezing in the winter time. Hard up for money soon after I got married, so away it went. That thing was built good, used a leather hammer to beat on the wheel wells to loosen up mud that had accumulated, those vacuum windshield wipers too some getting used to. Darn I wish I had been able to keep it!

OFC
03-22-2009, 09:18 PM
rudy05

thank you

Quote:

Originally Posted by U.S.G.I.

Hi Rudy,
There are rifles that are all original (parts that came with rifle as it was manufactured). These are the most desired Rifles.
There are correct rifles these are (rifles put back together the way they came off the manufacturing line).
You can have a all WWII rifle but all the parts are not correct for that serial number.
The rifles you are looking at don't have all the correct parts for that serial number but they are all WWII parts.
Does this help explain it?

Jeff

ok-- i do understand the origional rifle as made but, to me they are very few and costly if found. mine yes-- restorations and happy with them. as i said i am happy with representitives of what we used meaning restored back to what they were from day 1. now, what parts are wrong in the 43 and 44 i have posted?:(
03-22-2009, 09:39 PM
U.S.G.I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudy05

sn 1969xxx
rear sight- type 2
trigger housing 12
safety 6 w/ hole
hammer- 3
follower- 11
follower arm- no bevel
follower arm- 3 piece
bullet guide- solid no cuts
op rod- 6 uncut
barrel date- 9-43 no chrome
solid pin upper band
narrow base gas cylinder, lock will go to 11 o'clock and will take it back to 6 to lock in place
bolt-12 flat pin
hope pictures tell the rest.

These are by Duff's Red Book.
Safety...C46015-9SA
Hammer...C46008-5SA
Gas Cylinder...Wide Base
03-22-2009, 10:03 PM
U.S.G.I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudy05

sn-2748xxx
rear sight- type 3
bolt-12 flat pin
safety- sa11
hammer- 7
follower- 12
follower are- no bevel
bullet guide- no cuts
follower rod- 3 piece long fork
op rod- uncut 9
solid pin upper band
gas cylinder- wide platform
barrel date- 3-44
clip latch- appears to be flat end
gas cylinder lock goes to 9 o'clock, bring down to 6 to lock in place
lock screw- popet
the stock has a faint serifed p in the circle and an S in the barrel channel.
stock furrel has the large hole.
these are RESTORATIONS which is fine with me and the 44 has sa 2-65 scratched in the leg of the receiver which indicates a rebuild.
hope the pictures tell the rest of the story if i left anything out. (the barrel is excellent and was refinished to it origional color.

As per Duff again.
Rear Sight... Type II
Hammer...C46008-5 SA

Duff's book is over 10 years old some things stated back then have been found to be in correct. There has been a lot of new documentation that has been done in the last few years.
Wayne Bradford (ihcfan55) is coming out with a book on International Harvester's this fall I believe. This should have a lot of new information in it.

Got to go to work tomorrow so this is all I can do tonight.

Jeff
03-22-2009, 10:33 PM
rudy05

thank you
03-23-2009, 01:07 PM
Rule 303

It could just be the pictures but the lighter one of the two stocks has an ordnance wheel that seems older than the stamp next to it. Really close-up pictures will get you the help you want.
I'm no expert.
03-24-2009, 02:16 PM
billsm1

Stocks look fine to me, I like the darker ome a lot better. $1500 does seem like a lot of money but they are only going up in value, if they are not worth it now, they will be someday (soon)! If you talk to the collectors they will tell you about the CMP (DCM) garands and carbines they use to buy for $300, $200 or even $100 and not all were mixmasters!
Bill