Have read in C Law's book " Without Warning" that Unertl had problems delivering this scope to match the C3a1 rifle delivery. Did CF use the Kahles ZF69 early on in the program to bridge the gap? Ron(Canada)
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Have read in C Law's book " Without Warning" that Unertl had problems delivering this scope to match the C3a1 rifle delivery. Did CF use the Kahles ZF69 early on in the program to bridge the gap? Ron(Canada)
Ron,
Yes they did, but a lot surrounding the scopes was very vague until this document of 1989 alludes at the bottom that "The existing KHALES telescope will be replaced with a UNERTL 10 inch telescope to be provided by DND"
Hope that helps. It seems a lot of money was wasted on trying to find the Holy Grail of scopes at the time!
I'm aware that the original DND specification called for a 10x Unertl scope in a one piece bracket to be provided by Parker Hale. Parker Hale could not establish a contract with John Unertl and DND Supply stepped in, negotiated a contact and supplied the scope10x Unertl scope. Parker Hale designed, manufactured and installed the "original" the one piece bracket. This is the combination that is most commonly seen and intended for the program.
What did DND at the outset of the program? Had C3a1's - No Unertl 10x scopes. Had Kahles ZF's from the C3 program. I did a little more research this morning found a couple pictures of a ZF69scope mount in a special Parker Hale one piece bracket on a C3a1 in beech stock.
Ron (Canada)
Ron,
As said, strange times, only those who were part of the decision making can give a definitive answer to that one.
You have the order wrong- PH supplied the original PH one piece (aluminium?) brackets, John Unertl objected to them as being chintzy garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by rgg_7
John Unertl designed the bracket which was used on the c3a1 and PH manufactured it for the rifle. The c3a1 bracket is clearly based on the m40a1 bracket which J Unertl manufactured for the USMC.
Look for c3a1 brackets without the PH logo and if you compare them they are assembled differently.
Lee Enfield - I have an example of both one piece steel brackets that mount the 10x Unertl. The one with the Parker Hale logo and with out - I'll examine both and report my findings. What I'm asking is what DND did for scopes prior to receiving the 10x Unertl. I'm aware of the difference in opinion between Parker Hale and John Unertl -it's an interesting story.
Gil - I'm going to send you a couple pictures from Feb 1991 that are from the DND Infantry School. If you could pls post these on this thread as I can't upload to this site for some reason.. The C3a1 pictured uses the front dovetail and a special block behind the rear step in the receiver. The one bracket machine specifically for this application attaches to these mounting points and the ZF rests in the mount. This is a Parker Hale manufactured mount.
Thanks,
Ron (Canada)
Ron,
Posted as requested
Ron,
Lee Enfield is correct Parker Hale did supply the original one piece brackets which were steel, and Unertl rejected them for his own reasons.
He then went on to design his own bracket for the C3A1.
PH then did in sufference produce them for your DOD. USO also supplied a number of scopes.
Is that what you were after or did you think it occurred the other way round?
Added after:
Meant to say Ron, in your email with the pics you say the C3A1 bracket had the serial number of the rifle on. Yes they all did here is an example where a USO scope was fitted:
Gil - Thanks for posting the couple pictures.
What start all this was a package I purchased from a CF Weapons Tech about 7 years ago. It was a special bracket that I had not seen before. The bracket had the Parker Hale logo and a serial number stamped into the side wall of the bracket; did some research and determined that the serial number was C3a1. Upon obtaining the Parker Hale C3a1 build records noted that the SN was in the records.
After number emails and calls s I was told that the Kahles ZF69 was used early on in the C3a1 program as the specified 10X Unertl's were not available. "A ****ing contest between Parker Hale and Unertl" which the DND finally stepped into and went direct to John Unertl. Then there was the Gulf War, and all of John's commercial issues and his demise. I believe the contract was completed by John's wife . USO was not in the picture.
About 3.5 years ago I was provided with some documents that detailed on going issues with Parker Hale and DND. Amongst these documents were the a number of pictures - 2 of which Gill posted on my behalf. The pictures show a scoped wood stocked C3a1 with the bracket and a ZF69. Picture is dated Feb 1991.
I have the special bracket that i.m talking about - it has the C3a1's SN on the side wall...very early number. Also have the scope.
Should any of our members have any info on this topic or other scope combination pls post or PM.
Ron (Canada)
Gil, US Optics did not produce mst100 parts until (earliest) 2001.
They could not have produced a complete scope earlier than that - I would suspect September 11, 2001 is thw specific date that they were authorized by J.Unertl's widow to do so.
This information is from a USO advertising document dated 2004.
The illustrated USO scope is NOT Canadian contract, it is a commercial scope marked with spurious markings.
Agree in part, however at entry 2214 in Bill Smallwoods personal record of roughly December 1989 he has rifle 00341G listed fitted with that scope shown on the image.
So its a date thing here, do you hold any records to confirm the USO position your end?
Gil,Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
The fact that "US Optics" itself did not exist in 1989 would raise some questions regarding the veracity of your records. I will have to scan the 2004 catalogue page for you stating 2001 when the USMC came to USO.
About
I would note that in the years since 2004, US Optics has "moved the date" to as early as 1999 - although this seems to be more related to their (unsuccessful) lawsuit defense when sued by Unertl circa. 2006.
Quote:
From the 2004 US Optics catalogue:
In approx.2000, Major Tafolla of U.S.M.C. Systems Command approached Mrs. Unertl to continue to refurbish and
supply their M40 scopes. He was told she/they could no longer do the M40 scopes, as her husband had passed away
and they had no employees who could do the job satisfactorily. She said she was planning to sell the company. She
recommended us as capable of doing the job. In approx. 2001 Major Taffolla and his officers visited us, saw the
company and asked us to do the work. We won the contract for scope refurbishment, they ere extremely happy and
have been with us since then. We have made and refurbished many scopes, modified and made changes for the
corps and have a great relationship with them.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-williams-50a05411
Machinist, Assembler, Production Manager, R&D, etc.
U.S. Optics, Inc.
July 1990 – December 2013 23 years 6 months
Orange County, California Area
Before becoming owner and CEO I started from the ground up. I have always been versed in machining as I grew up with a machine shop in our garage. When I started working with my father at USO, I began by learning the art of manufacturing optical components. After that, I lead the assembly department, which only included myself at first, then grew rapidly. I was lucky enough to be in a situation where continuous growth was pushing the company, so I was constantly improving the products and coming up with new designs.
U.S. Optics
U.S. Optics has been building custom riflescopes and optics for 25 years.
Domestic Made Products
Every custom or commercial off the shelf (COTS) product is produced in the US.
Product List
History
U.S. Optics Inc. was the brainchild of the former founder and President John Ben Williams Jr. The company had humble beginnings and was originally started from the garage of John's Fullerton, California's residence in 1990. The idea to create an optics company that would fill the gap to provide truly custom telescopic rifle sights designed by the shooter for the shooter was born.Website
235 United Drive, Kalispell, Montana, 59901
Website: U.S. Optics
I'm very familiar with 00341G. No I don't own it however somebody else does here in Canada (Purchased in the configuration shown by Gil from Highwood Classic). It was built by Bill Smallwood on date stated, sent to Canada and returned to Parker Hale for repair. This and one other was retained in their collection untill they ceased operations .It was purchased by a gent in the UK, rebarrelled, scoped with a USO MST-100 and restocked with a McMillan A5. The work described was done post sale as he was very active in the tactical arms business and had the connections. For unknown reason it was consigned to Highwood for sale last year.
Gil - you're correct that the rifle was build by Bill in 1989 however it lost it's original scope somewhere along the way.
Lee Enfield - your USO information is solid. USO never had any involvement in the C3a1 program.
USO has had a couple of recent offering of MST-100 with Marine and C3a1 markings. Oiginal serial numbers were not replicated and they refused to mark these anywhere close to the originals.
I see where there's confusion when something like 00341G surfaces.
Ron (Canada)
I have a letter from Unertl that was sent to Parher Hale about the design of the mount and problem they had on the M40 it came with 2 M40 unertl mounts showing the problems with the tolrances on the remington actions.
Lee Enfield,
I wrote that down above but meant to say the rifle is logged but the scopes are not which I passed to Ron. The paragraph sounds like the scope is logged to the rifle, it was the image I referred to.
Well in Bill Smallwoods defence these are HIS records NOT mine which he made on the production line as he built and tested each rifle.
All I have been asked to do is to retain these records and pass on what they say to those who are avid users of Parker Hale rifles as I am.
Ron raises some valid points, and I have to say I am not a follower of USO or indeed other scope manufacturers as there are too many. Even Peter Laidler will tell you, there are a mountain to choose from especially in those days we are now talking about, so I'll leave it to factual papers that can show their existance.
So where does that leave us with the USO scope shown on the rifle, is it a mirage?? answers on a postage stamp??
US Optics has offered custom markings and serial numbers since they started building complete MST100 scopes circa. 2002/2003.
US Optics puts spurious USMC markings on their MST100 scopes as their standard markings.
So in short, even if I have a rifle I want a scope for, they will produce it to whatever serial number I provide them from that rifle, thereby matching it?
Yes, all sorts of crazy "serial numbers" from peoples names to their service numbers have been utilized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
From US Optics twit-ter feed a few years ago from the 2014 "pre-order" :
Attachment 99063
look at all the "C3" marked scopes...
Attachment 99062
Thanks for that. Probably the reason the rifle that sold with that scope caused so much anxt. Noone was sure where it came from!
Here's a summary of the Unertl event's for the C3a1 program (source - Without Warning - C Law)
1. DND issued contact W8466-7-EHB17 for 571 10x Unertl scopes.
2. Development and trails was not without issues. First trails of 4 scopes Feb -Nov 1990. 8 more trial and approved for manufacture Feb 1991.
3. First 50 scopes delivered Aug 1991
4. Next delivery Feb 1992 - 71 scopes.
5. Next delivery of 171 promised April 1992.
6. Contract complete late 1993 - total scopes purchased 571 ( 71 were spares).
Parker Hales C3a1 contract ( reference Gil's Parker Hale documents)
1. SOW was for 500 rifles.
2. Contract award: Nov26, 1987
3. Contract completion: Dec31, 1989
4. Delivery: 1990
5. First issue to Sniper Infantry School - Aug 1990.
6. Delivery completion: ?????
7. Unertl installation by Parker Hale: ?????
If you look at the timing - the earliest the Unertl availability was Aug 1991 - 20 months after the completion of the C3a1's. to bridge this gap Canadian used the ZF69 with the special mount that I've shown in the above thread.
Ron (Canada)
---------- Post added at 07:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 AM ----------
The scope on 00341G is a USO produced MST-100. Look at the turret details. The markings on this were applied at the customer's request. You could have what every you wanted except "original serial numbers".
Ron (Canada)
rather than C3A1 rifles fitted across the board with Kahles Scopes, the problems with Unertl is probably what lead to the C3 rifles being retained until Nov 1993.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Attachment 99076
Attachment 99074
Attachment 99075
Page 75 & 76 of the 2004 US Optics Catalogue. Note the possibly "eccentric" text - much of the catalogue is composed of this amazing information.
Attachment 99058
Attachment 99057
Note the "Approx." dates stated in the text - as mentioned I believe the "exact" "approximation" of the actual date to be Sept. 11, 2001 (or Sept 12th perhaps).
Note also that the "3rd" limited edition run is starting in 2004, taking us back to..2002 and 2003 for the 1st and second runs of the MST100 scope.
On one of the other sites "specializing" in M40 type rifles, one of the posters stated that they replaced the front objective bell housing on some of the scopes that they refurbished - in fact one poster posted a photo of a "wind chime" assembled using damaged Unertl scope component parts.
So USO was manufacturing all of the component parts of the scope for the USMC, and took advantage of this to manufacture a run of complete scopes for commercial sale.
There are USO marked scopes showing up in USMC surplus sales, but there is debate regarding whether they are replacement centre sections or complete scopes. There is also debate whether a complete scope was used by a USMC personnel to replace a "liberated" Unertl.
Attachment 100373
Attachment 100372
this was recently for sale on another board...
Thoughts on the one piece scope mount in Thread #23. Appears to be same as that in Thread #7. Couple of these have shown up in Canada recently as collector sell off their items....wonder if there are any more out there with C3a1 serial numbers. Ron (Canada)