Modified S&W 1917, .455/.45LC

Hi everybody,


here I am again with questions to the more knowledgeable.
I‘ve been seing this gun on sale on the Internet for a couple years now, and it has dropped in price from 500 to 250 €.
Now I‘m starting to get interested.
I know the 1917 model and I read that there have been a few of them modified as target guns, with quite a few different sights and solutions.
This one, at least on picture, looks like a very well done job.
It is on sale by a renown arms shop in Milan, which is not quite around the corner, but still within reach during some work trips, so I guess the conditions should be good as they claim them to be.
Any suggestions?
Is such a reworked gun worth anything?
Actually, if these old horses are accurate, with such sights they should be really enjoyable, which would settle the question for me.
Attachment 99228Attachment 99229Attachment 99230Attachment 99231Attachment 99232Attachment 99233Attachment 99234

I'd say it'a well past the collector stage now but as a shooter it well may be superb. It would join that .44 of yours as a favorite on the firing point...

By the looks of it, and the regimental flags in one of the shots, it was probably at one time a British purchased pistol, and more than likely for WWI. It states .455 which could be Webley, but also could be chambered for .455 Eley/.455 Colt. Since the Eley/Colt casing is the length of a .45 ACP round (.89" or 22.6mm), that would be a way to check it (putting the round in and rotating the cylinder). The .455 Webley casing, by way of comparison is .75" or 19.05mm. You can shoot .455 Webley out of it just as easily and might be able to find it more readily in Italy/Europe. If it is chambered in .455 Eley/Colt though, in a pinch you can fire .45 ACP through it if the bore is .452". The only drawback is that you have to eject the casings with a dowel or pencil, kind of like the Colt SA Army. I've done it with my British marked 1914 production Colt New Service chambered in .455 Eley. Considering the cylinders are built to withstand the pressures of .45 Colt (also wrongly known as .45 Long Colt), .455 Webley or .45 ACP are more mild. For that price, it should be a good addition and shoot well. Cheers, Bruce.

I believe these guns are quite accurate, that is why the rib and target sights, and a pleasure to shoot.. The 455 is a milder version of the 45 and given the correct case and bullet diameter, should shoot very well.

Do not shoot jacketed bullets out of a pre 1960 S&W barrel.

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Do not shoot jacketed bullets out of a pre 1960 S&W barrel.

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Hmm..interesting. What's the reasoning for that?
As far as I know, the ammo for these 1917s was jacketed from the very beginning. The 45 ACP certainly was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Do not shoot jacketed bullets out of a pre 1960 S&W barrel.

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Too late...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Do not shoot jacketed bullets out of a pre 1960 S&W barrel.

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As the rcathey asks, why would that be? The S&W M1917 was used extensively, along with the Colt M1917, with cupro-nickel jacketed bullets in WWI, then with gilding metal (.950 copper) clad in WWII. Having collected and shot a variety of firearms over the years, this is the first time I have heard of this caution, though there are a lot of things I'm hearing and reading of in my later years that are contradicting what I thought was truth. Could you please enlighten as to the reason(s) why you should not fire clad bullets through a pre 1960 S&W? Respectfully, Bruce.

Ovidio, it is my opinion you have a S&W Model 1915 Type 2 revolver by the barrel markings and the bore is for the 455 Webley WW1 cartridge. The barrel was cut back as the original was 6 1/2 inches. The 455 Webley cylinder can be rechambered to the 45 Colt.

Years ago I bought a S&W Model 1915 Type 2 in 455 Webley caliber, later I had it re-chambered to 45 Colt. Accuracy was very poor, even tried 38 grs of black powder, Factory cartridges also were not accurate, 45 Auto Rim will fit the cylinder but the rim is too thick to close the cylinder. Also a reduced load of Unique in the big 45 Colt case was also a waste of time. I did not like loading the factory load of 8 grains of Unique in my WW1 revolver. After WW1 I heard the cylinder received heat treatment ?

I decided to cut down the 45 Colt cartridge case to the same length as the 45 ACP case and with loads of Unique it worked out. I understand the "Cowboy shooters" also have a short Colt cartridge case that they use too. Anyway accuracy improved Attachment 99266Attachment 99267Attachment 99268Attachment 99269

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Originally Posted by rcathey

Hmm..interesting. What's the reasoning for that?
As far as I know, the ammo for these 1917s was jacketed from the very beginning. The 45 ACP certainly was.

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http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/143635-455-vs-45-acp.html

It is a Second Model Hand Ejector .455, not an M.1917.

Part of the confusion is that while an M.1917 is a type of Second Model Hand Ejector, a Second Model is not an M.1917...

While Colt started heat treating their cylinders circa 1909, S&W did not until roughly 1918/1919.

Barrel steels were designed around cast (or even swaged) lead bullets, right into the .357 Magnum era.

Here is a photo of some recovered 455 bullets (they were 265 grs with a jacket and deep hollow base) that I had fired years ago into oak stumps. The Model 1915 Type 2 was chambered for the 455 Webley and used by the UK. Years ago I found that it was very difficult to reload the 455 cases and decided to rechamber my S&W to 45 Colt. Many of these revolvers were also rechambered to 45 ACP with clips. Not much accuracy with a jacket 450 dia bullet being fired down a 455 bore.

In an attempt to get a more accurate load, I took some 250 gr lead bullets that were 452 dia and made them into a hollow base which worked out. If you can find them. original 45 Colt 255 gr bullets are .454 dia and will work tooAttachment 99285

I used to shoot bowling pin competitions with a S&W 2nd Model and Colt NS that I had had rechambered to .45 Colt. ( I regret doing it, but they were everywhere at the time, and cheap).

I eventually bought a pairing 455 guns for each.

I inspired a .455 "pin shoot" where everyone shot .455s, it was not inspiring to shoot ww1, inter war and ww2 dated ammo, many of the rounds didn't do more than dent the jacket of the pins.

Somewhere in my gear i have a bowling pin with a .455 CN bullet dead centre, just penetrated the plastic jacket enough to stick in.

As to brass, it was a bit of a cottage industry here to convert .45 Colt brass to .455 Eley (mki long).
Shorten the case and thin the rim ( from the front).

As an aside, a friend has set up to sell pre lubed cast bullets at gunshows - he comments that he has been getting lots of questions regarding what the red and blue coloured bands are...
I guess no one shoots cast anymore...

Thank you for the explanation. Cheers, Bruce.

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

I guess no one shoots cast anymore...

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Not so, that's almost all I shoot in handgun and for 30-30 Winchester.

All the gun shops sell cast bullets in bags or boxes nothing less then 500 bullets in my area.

Photos show my S&W K-38 single action with 8 3/8 barrel in 38 Special and my S&W Model 25 in 45 Colt. I have never fired a jacket bullet in either one of these revolvers.Attachment 99292Attachment 99293

Very nice looking revolvers.
Actually, my goal is to get a 25, as old as possible, with pinned barrel.
An older guy here shoots a wonderful one from the ‘60ies and is thinking about selling it due to age.
He’s got my number.
I hope he’ll call me one day or the other.
As for the gun I posted, I received very positive remarks about the dealer selling it, so I guess I’ll call him to find out a few details, especially what bore diameter the gun has.
In the description they say it is a .455/.45 Colt also. Until approximately WWII I read that the bores of .45 Colt were wider, made for .454 bullets. I think that that would also apply for the .455 rounds.
It is not easy to find those wider bullets here.
Modern .45 Colt dies would handle .454 bullets?

Don't worry about the .454 to .452 bore issue. The bore issue really isn't a real issue.

The real issue is cylinder throat size.

Webley MkI thru MkIV revolvers are commonly found with .452 bores and .450 throats. Undersize throats worked OK with open base bullets, current solid base, not so much.

Pre ww2 Colt and S&W revolvers are usually fairly close. .454 bore, .454 throats.

However 1970s thru 1988 Colt and S&W revolvers were commonly found with cylinder throats varying betwèen .452 and .458.

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Originally Posted by Ovidio

Modern .45 Colt dies would handle .454 bullets?

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Yes they will.

You have to remember that this pistol never looked like this when it left the factory. It has been modified with the top strap being added with the newer front sight and the adjustable rear sight. The grips are replacements too. No wonder it hasn't sold yet and the price keeps dropping. Not low enough yet in my mind. Might be better to save the money and get the real factory made deal.

I want to add another photo of the bullets that I found to be very accurate in my old S&W 1915 revolver, it was chambered in 455 Webley and the rear section of the cylinder rechambered for 45 Colt.

I use 451 dia lead bullets that weight 250 grs and cut a hollow base with an old .400 dia ball cutter in a brass collet in my lathe, after the hollow base is cut the bullets weigh 220 grsAttachment 99388

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Originally Posted by RCS

cut a hollow base

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So they bump up...

Yes, they bump up, the original 455 military Mark 11 loading with jacket bullet also had the hollow base too