Help me identify my enfield

Hey all,
Long time reader, first time poster. I had the pleasure of purchasing my 1st enfield yesterday: A well worn but solid functioning No. 1 Mk. III* from 1942. I am thrilled because as far as I can tell other than removal of grenadier wire wraps no one outside the British army has messed with it. From what I can tell the stock finish is still original as well. Every serial number matches down to the magazine:56653 G. She is beautiful in her own way despite the metal being mostly coated with black arsenal paint. I have considered trying to remove this but I decided against it because it was put there on purpose and is a part of her history. I am replacing the safety locking pin, which is broken making it not able to engage but other than that am not messing with it to avoid bubba-ing it.

There are several marks on it that confuse me and no amount of internet searching has revealed an answer please let me know if any of y'all can shed some light on any of the following marks (or lackthereof):

There is no unit disk and no evidence of a repair.

The stock (right side) has a broad arrow with an S on the left, an I below and an A on the right.

Where I would think the unit disk would be there is also a small and partially worn off similar cartouche consisting of the numbers 506 over a broad arrow and the numbers 1570? (difficult to read) underneath it.

The metal band on the reciever has the year, crown, GRI and No 1. MkIII as I would expect but no mention of a manufacturer.

The left side of the grenadier cross-bolt has a triangle with a lightning bolt on it.

on the top of the barrel shoulder (at the breach) there are the letters GF, and another GF mark just in front of that. I assume this doesn't mean gluten free (grenade firing?). I would expect the "emergency use only" cartouche for a grenadier here if anything, I haven't found any other examples of this my searches.


On the right side of the stock opposite where I'd expect a unit disk is the numbers "34" in white paint.

Right behind the trigger on the bottom of the stock is the letter "S" and one other symbol which looks like either an "8" or another "S"


Thank you in advance. I know this rifle has an interesting history and possibly saw combat, so let me know what y'all think from those marks and pictures. I think from the black arsenal paint she definitely ended up in India at some point but was she made there? did she serve in WW2?

She passed a gunsmith's inspection so I get to shoot her tomorrow I am so excited!

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Originally Posted by Noobtubes

There is no unit disk and no evidence of a repair.
Unit discs were discontinued during WW11 to avoid the enemy capturing prisoners and rifles and finding out who was opposing them. They were re-introduced later on an ad-hoc basis but their use does not seem to have been mandatory

The stock (right side) has a broad arrow with an S on the left, an I below and an A on the right.
Indian ownership / inspection mark

Where I would think the unit disk would be there is also a small and partially worn off similar cartouche consisting of the numbers 506 over a broad arrow and the numbers 1570? (difficult to read) underneath it.

The metal band on the reciever has the year, crown, GRI and No 1. MkIII as I would expect but no mention of a manufacturer.
GRI - George Rex Imperator would indicate it is an Indian manufactured rifle. manufactured in the Ishapore factory

The left side of the grenadier cross-bolt has a triangle with a lightning bolt on it.
This is an Indian method of strengthening the forend

on the top of the barrel shoulder (at the breach) there are the letters GF, and another GF mark just in front of that. I assume this doesn't mean gluten free (grenade firing?). I would expect the "emergency use only" cartouche for a grenadier here if anything, I haven't found any other examples of this my searches.
GF = Grenade Firing


On the right side of the stock opposite where I'd expect a unit disk is the numbers "34" in white paint.
Probably just a stores 'rack number'

Right behind the trigger on the bottom of the stock is the letter "S" and one other symbol which looks like either an "8" or another "S"


I think from the black arsenal paint she definitely ended up in India at some point but was she made there? did she serve in WW2?
Yes she was made in India, painted by the Indians and probably served with them.

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A nice example of an WW2 period Indian rifle

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

A nice example of an WW2 period Indian rifle

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Thanks for sharing that information...always seems to be more to learn with these rifles.

Cool thanks for the info! I can't help but wonder when she was used in WW2, time to do some research about where Indian regiments were deployed! I guess I'll keep searching for an RFI stamp because it sounds like she's got one somewhere. do all ishapore rifles have that stamp?

Your rifle looks like it was imported by Century Arms of Vermont (VT). At one point the foreend was wrapped in wire probably for launching rifle grenades. You can see the wire impressions in the stock.

I think that black paint came long after service.

I can only echo really, a nice original, ex Indian Army Ishapore No1 MK3*, in what looks to be very reasonable order.

Check the headspace and check for any obvious issues, barrel bulges etc (always sensible on a new milsurp rifle anyway) then enjoy shooting a true classic.

Well after first shooting here's the report:

The good: It shoots like a laser: both winchester and federal factory loads ran great, no failures to feed, fire or eject and it hit a literal bullseye on the first shot (and was solid for the rest as well). The recoil on it feels like a .22 compared to my 1903 which I was going back and forth from

The bad: The cases came out deformed (federal did worse than winchester) they appear belted with a notable bulge near the belt-line and the primers are palpably pushed out. The Wolf military classic berdan ammo didn't even go off (despite the firing pin hitting the primers). It went 0 for 4 so I'm not necessarily blaming the gun for that but I will be talking to wold about it as the primers are obviously deeper than either federal or winchester.

I also had my friend video my first salvo and on one round you can see some gas escaping from forward of the bolt.

I'm gonna gauge the headspace when I can get my hands on a .303 gauge (let me know if anyone here has an extra) but its not looking good for this old girl.

The ugly:
I was having such an awesome day shooting iron sights (probably one of my best days ever accuracy-wise, but thats not saying much because I'm not exactly a Seargent York) that when my friend asked me to try shooting his scoped remington 700 I positioned myself totally incorrectly and got a nice 1 inch gash in my forehead from the scope, but there was no line at urgent care so c'est la vie.


The bottom line: I love this rifle and want to have a complete, matching enfield so bad but I'm thinking I might've gotten burned this time. I got it as part of a trade that included a nice 1907 enfield bayonet, a repro canvas bag and sling, an original enfield cleaning kit still in was paper and 100 rounds of wolf classic ammo so the rifle was only about $450 of the value. It looks like my options are at this point:

A: offload it as a display piece.

B: pay to get it re-barreled.

C: Cry long and hard.

D: Both A and C.

E: Both B and C.


I'd love to hear what you guys think

You forgot option F): none of the above.

Those deformed fired cases are normal for wartime Lee Enfields. I have a couple of No 4(T) Snipers that are harder on the cases than that. If you reload, then case life is limited to 3-6 reloadings before they split. If you don't reload, then you've nothing to worry about.

There is a lot of talk on the internet about headspace and lee-enfields. I own several, and have only headspaced two that had bolts replaced.

In looking at the pictures you posted of the cases, I can see where the primers have backed out on a few of the cases. That tells me those rounds were light loads (not loaded to maximum velocity), and as such, the case does not fully grip the chamber walls. This would cause a bit of gas to escape out around the case near the bolthead and the primers top back out. If I had to guess, some of the cases necks and case bodies are sooty, correct?

My advice is to do a search of this forum for "Enfield headspace" (in the search field). The experts on here have gone over the headspace issue to the point of having beaten the dead horse into small carbon atoms.

Looking at your cases and hearing your descriptions tell me its a normal enfield. nothing you have conveyed here would necessitate a barrel change. Save your money on the headspace gauges too. The US sporting gauges do not equate to the British military spec gauges.

I would caution against using Wolf Ammo. Those steel cases do not expand and grip the chamber wall like brass does. Try and stick to brass commercial manufactured (PPU, Rem, Win etc), or surplus ammunition. If you can find any surplus HXP (greek) or MAN (german), grab it and enjoy. That stuff is great.

Don't worry, enjoy your rifle (you got it at a good price), and remember proper eye-relief on scoped 700's!!!

EDIT: here is a post that touches briefly on case bulging and headspace.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=63331

Hey, Thanks for the info! That would be awesome because rebarreling would make it not all original. I got the WOLF as part of the trade but I would never buy it. My current theory (until reading your post) is that the bolt head is worn causing the case not to seat? the striking pin marks are slightly to one side and that is the bulged side. I read that thread but is it normal to have that kind of asymmetric bulging? I also had one primer burn-through on the winchester 180's. I 100% plan on reloading but was gonna do this for a while to accumulate brass. I would love it if it was a non-issue as the gun shoots like a top right now.

Its a non-issue. The pierced primers are a sign of pressure in the other direction from the backed-out primers. I have seen asymmetrical in many of my rifles. I just full-length size and reload-on. Granted, case life for me (generally) is around 3-5 loads with Remington and Winchester brass. With HXP and PPU, I have some cases going on 7 loadings. HXP and PPU is much better brass than the current US commercial stuff. I have a couple of hundred loads consisting of Hornady brass, and am now up to 6 re-loadings with those. Pricey, but good stuff too.

As always, use the most current load data, and never exceed the maximums listed in the manuals. Almost all of my loads are in the 80-85% of maximum. I keep the velocities to around 2200 to 2300 FPS. Remember, these are old rifles, and there is no need to max the loads.

Heck, I have a 220 Swift that bulges cases in an asymmetric way, and that thing still shoots 1/2 inch groups all day long. Cases life is short for that one, as I max all of those loads for varmint hunting.

My SMLE (1917 Enfield) always leaves a slight bulge in the back end of the case, head space is fine.

The SMLE had a rather generous chamber, apparently configured to facilitate the Rifles reliable use in 3 feet of mud during WW1.

I can only assume that Ishapore kept the same chamber spec?

My No4 and No5 far less so, with a very slight, barely noticeable deformation.

I would concur regards recoil, .303 is certainly a lot more sedate than .30-06.

I notice the same thing when I switch between my Enfields and my A4 at the range.

Yes, I find the same significant difference in perceived recoil between 303 & 7.9 x 57. I can shoot 303 all day but I've generally had enough after 30 rounds of 7.9, especially if it is Summer & I'm wearing only light clothing........:madsmile:

As mentioned before, your fired brass looks typical. If you're going to reload, buy yourself a Lee Collet neck sizing die. It will significantly extend case life. Also, your loaded rounds will now be headspaced on the shoulder rather than the rim. Commercial, American made, 303 cases typically have thinner rims than the original milsurp ammo, causing sometimes headspace problems. This is eliminated when neck sizing rather than full length sizing. Good luck with your No1 and enjoy!!

I am not an expert, but have shot .303s all my life and regularly shoot 6 examples [ME, LEC, MLE x2, SMLE, No4]. In the past I have certainly had one .303, a MLE, which stretched cases a lot, and led to case separations after a small no. of reloadings; I tried everything but was never happy and then sold it on and became happy. And I've been very lucky ever since then with several other rifles; they vary a lot - and it was not down to headspace but the dimensions of the chamber, I understand. The chamber on your rifle does seem wider than most, from the appearance of your case. Although there is often a bright ring on a fired .303 case about 8mm up from the rim [which is, by the way, the same place where most case separations occur] , the bulge shown in your pic does seem unusually obvious. Even if you just resized the necks, I wonder if you'll start to see case separations. Those aren't catastrophic, by the way, but it is not a reassuring thing to happen on the range and it does require having a .303 broken case extractor with you [ see .303 Clearing Plug, Or Split Case Extractor. ]. My personal preference in your situation would be as follows: I'd sell the rifle back to the dealer I got it from, accepting 25% or so loss, and I'd look for another .303 from a reputable dealer but I'd ask if I can do a range test first, to satisfy myself the rifle is accurate and the cases look OK after firing. I think peace of mind has a lot of value. But as I say that is my personal view; I am quite certain others will disagree, perhaps emphatically.
Rob

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Originally Posted by RobD

I wonder if you'll start to see case separations. Those aren't catastrophic, by the way, but it is not a reassuring thing to happen on the range and it does require having a .303 broken case extractor with you

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That is what the Butt-Hole and oil bottle is for - to make sure you always have a spare :
Extractor
Extractor Spring
Extractor screw
Case extractor


Add a small watchmakers screwdriver and you are 'good to go'.

"That is what the Butt-Hole and oil bottle is for"

Is that a quote from Carry on up the Khyber?

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Originally Posted by Noobtubes

0% plan on reloading but was gonna do this for a while to accumulate brass

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I am not an Enfield expert, but I do reload for 3 of them. 1) The bulge is rather typical of the loose chambers that were to decrease the incidence of jams from mud in trenches. The solution for reloaders is to save brass from each rifle separately then neck size. You now have rounds that are customized for each chamber. Brass life will be excellent. 2) It is best practice to get some common "O" rings that just slip onto the cartridge and rest on the rim. The first time you use the brass it will be held in close contact with the bolt. Yes, bolt will be hard to close the bolt. Remove the"O" ring, neck size and you will now, in that rife, head space on the shoulder. Again long brass life. If I remember the archives somewhere on this site have this info.

hi i would keep it batch some brass to the rifle and enjoy