Non DP 1944 Ishapore with DP Bolt

Hey Everyone,

I recently traded for a .303 1944 Ishapore No1 Mk3*. I have disassembled it. The rifle itself is not DP marked. However, the bolt, bolt head and rear top handguard (the tiny one behind the rear sight) have DP stamped on them.

Also, there is no hole drilled in the chamber or anything of that nature. And the firing pin has not been cut off. There is no paint on the stock except for a rack number.

So, if this was your rifle, how would you feel about shooting it? The previous owner says he fired it a few years ago. I really like the rifle!

Thoughts on this?

Thanks
Jake

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So, the bolt is mismatched?

Yes, the bolt is mismatched. As a matter of fact, now that I look at it the bolt's serial appears to have been scrubbed. If it is normally on the rear of the bolt handle (as in you could've read the serial number on the bolt with the rifle shouldered) then there are some file marks there to have removed it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jakebevt48

So, if this was your rifle, how would you feel about shooting it?

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Personally (since you asked) I would not shoot it - in fact I would not have bought it (traded for it) in the 1st place (unless I wanted a wallhanger)

The problem is "you just don't know"

You assume that the rifle is 'fine' and that it lost its bolt sometime and someone just put a 'new' bolt in. Was the bolt correctly fitted ? (fitted as in adjusted to fit properly, not just shoved in the bolt-raceway) - you just don't know.

I wouldn't shoot it until I was happy the rifle was head spacing correctly and the bolt was correctly fitted and adjusted to the action.

So guys, what would be your advice on inspecting the rifle/restoring it to being a shooter? Check headspace with gauges? Order a new bolt assembly (and recheck headspace)? The only issue i've seen is that most bolts you can order online from Liberty Tree or Sarco are DP marked anyway.

Again, if you take out the bolt and remove that top handguard there are no other DP marked parts anywhere--which from what I have read would mean the rifle itself is not a DP gun. Anyone know how to solve this problem?

My advice Jake would be to get the rifle inspected by a gunsmith who understands Enfields, we always recommend Brian Dick of this Parish as a starting point.

It's very important to ensure the bolt is gauging correctly and bedded correctly with the action.

hi do the other numbers match get some marking blue or a permanent marker and ink the locking lugs if it doesn’t show contact on both sides get someone to look at it for you,there are a number of reasons the bolt was replaced

The other numbers on the rifle are matching, including the rear sight, magazine, and nose cap. It really is a nice rifle! But I will check the lug contact.

You are asking "is safe to shoot" so obviously you are unsure so take the very sage advise that has been given above and get it properly looked at and fully checked before you shove anything into the chamber. The DP marks could have been applied for a number of reasons and not necessarily because the parts were unsafe but as the bolt and other pressure bearing parts do not appear to come from this rifle then the only sensible thing to do is have it checked.

The final paragraph from Peter Laidler's 'Thesis on the DP Rifle'

Would YOU trust one? There certainly IS a place for a DP rifle in a collection as it forms a place in the lineage of the breed. But in the cupboard or rack or on the wall. NOT on the firing point.

Would YOU fire one? I’ve been an Armourer for a couple of years and while I or your local gunsmith could examine one and give it a bright clean bill of health, would YOU trust it. NO, I wouldn’t either!

Thanks for your replies everyone. I won’t shoot the rifle until I get it checked out by a gunsmith. To be fair I have $220 in it, so I may still come out ok if the smith approves it as a shooter.

Unless I'm missing something here, is this actually a "DP" rifle? Are they not usually (always) stamped on receiver ring/ barrel, etc. Would the plan here not be to have a qualified person replace the bolt and, along with that, give it a routine inspection?

Ridolpho

Ridolpho's hit the nail on the head.
In the UK, fitting a new or replacement bolt would also mean compulsorily submitting the rifle for Proof. If it passed Proof, that would give considerable reassurance about its safety. Can rifles be submitted for Proof in the USA in the same way?
Rob

Ridolpho,

The rifle is not a DP gun, and is not DP marked on the barrel or receiver. The only DP parts are the bolt, bolt head, and there is a faint DP on the small top hand guard. But my questions arose because the bolt is obviously a pressure bearing part. As a matter of fact, the rifle seems to be all matching numbers except the bolt.

Jake: To get back to your original question, I suspect that most here, including myself, would not use the rifle with the DP stamped bolt parts. Personally I would source an excellent second hand bolt (and ancillary parts) and fit it to the body or have it done by someone who knows what they're doing. Asking a gunsmith to determine if it's safe to shoot with a DP bolt is not the answer- at least not if you care to follow the advice of the experts on this forum.

Ridolpho

There are plenty of very good rifles for sale out there; so why take the risk? I suppose it's a question of how lucky you feel when pulling the trigger!
Personally; 18 tons per square inch on the wrong side of a badly fitted bolt is not a risk that I would take!

Get the right bolt fitted by a gunsmith that knows how to correctly fit a enfield bolt. As for DP marked wood its just wood. Dont mess with metal it could kill you.

There's a few reasons I'd not be using that rifle.
You can have no way of knowing, now that the number's been scrubbed off the bolt whether or not that is the original bolt to that rifle. If it is, you've got a DP rifle. If it's not you've got the bolt from a DP rifle that may have been downgraded due to an issue with that bolt.
Before the L59 programme of DP-ing No4 rifles, I'm pretty sure there was no universally applied regime to marking rifles as DP, some rifles might have been stamped "DP" on every visible surface (if the armourer was particularly bored that day, or, more likely just enough parts of the rifle that would have been visible in the rifle rack to let you know at a glance that it was a DP. Even if there was such a "standard", who's to say the rifle is from a source that practised THAT standard? Could have been from a school cadet unit, could have been from a TA unit.
Too many unanswered questions for my liking.
Much as it hurts, I'd be stripping it for parts. Even the wood set should be good for at least 150 bucks + on e-bay.