Hello,
I'm not sure what are the maximum possible muzzle velocities with factory ammo and also handloads in .303 British for the P14 Enfield Rifle ? The P14 posesses an rather long barrel with 660 mm length, compared with the Mark 3 or Number 4-Rifles. Especially for the 174-180 grains-Ammo. I have been searching for a while but I could not find truly convincing information.
Greetings Enfield Enforcer
For me, there was a positive velocity gain.
However, It's very much dependent on the individual rifle. A rifle with a tight chamber, usually produces higher projectile velocities over one with a larger chamber, assuming all other variables are the same. The extra barrel length can also contribute to an velocity increase with the .303 cartridge as well.
I haven't done a great deal of chronograph work with the P14, however, I have reached 2500fps and sometimes a bit more on several occasions with various production lots of mk VIIz ball ammo. With my Ross MkIII and it's 30.5" barrel, it's even more.
The front locking actions as used in the P14 and Ross Rifles when properly head spaced, are a bit easier on the brass case when you're near or at maximum loads. There's a lot of variables involved, but in theory, you should be able to produce somewhat higher velocities with good case life when loading for these rifles. Of course, that may come at the expense of accuracy...
I don't have any "Pet" loads to offer you at present, but most every loading manual with data for the .303 British Cartridge will show a minimum charge weight for any given bullet weight and powder type. I would start there and see where the cartridge pressure signs take you.
Each extra inch causes roughly a extra 10 feet per second on the velocity. So your really not going to see much of a difference over a Lee Enfield with service ammo.
Handloads you can't accurately say as it is a handload and will differ person to person. The bullet weight will make a difference, how hot the person chooses to load it (and since it is a P14 you can likely load beyond what is published in reloading manuals as those would be targeting the weaker Lee Enfield actions), etc.
If you are talking military issue, expect between 2400 and 2550 fps, depending on lot number, factory, country, age, rifle, etc. Handloading would changes all the parameters in all directions of course.
Then of course the rifle itself, unissued, well used, chamber dimensions, barrel grooves and lands condition, leade condition, bolt wear, headspace, etc.
In short there are so many factors that might influence the maximum muzzle velocity for military ammunition that it would be best to generalise at about 2500 fps. A definite answer would be to shoot the same ammunition through a number of P14 at the same time on the same range, ensuring that all of them are cleaned, oiled, stocked, held, etc, identically. That would then be true only for that lot of ammunition on that day at that range for those rifles.
Of course squeezing the trigger harder might influence muzzle velocity too...:))
With a S.M.L.E. Mark III and 25 inch barrel you can expect 2450 or so from factory loaded ammo in the 180 gr. range. The P14 adds one inch of barrel but not much of a gain for velocity.
You made me go look for my recent chronograph results and here's what I found,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
No4MKI HXP ammo average velocity was 2553
No4MKI POF ammo average velocity was 2484 The temperature was 89.
No1MkIII POF ammo average velocity was 2337. The temperature that day was 106.
Now I have to get out the P14 and see what the difference is, if any.:thup:
AZB
Handloads you can get up around 2700 fps with 150 gr.
That was a SMLE not a modern gun rifled for 303
Hello, many thanks !Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
So many reactions in this short time, I am pleasantly surprised :-)
I wonder which trajectory this .303 British-Load Mark 7z will have. This Round seems not to be exhausted in this rifle with the MV's of 720-730 m/s or 2362-2395 fps.
Jakester: special thanks to you. Exactly that is interesting. MV's of more than 2500 fps/762 m/s with the 174 grs and similar loads in the P14: thats what I have been supposing - this 725 m/s/2378 fps in the Wikipedia f.e. seem to be really low. I have a table with reloading data from a GunMagazine from Germany, but it contains only a velocity for an 150 grains-Reload.
Eaglelord17: i hope we get a bit more from our loads, and from all our work :-) And yes, the P14 should enable a bit stronger ammo then for the LE-Models, thats the base of all. I'm not yet a reloader, but i have 2-3 persons in my surroundings which reload all their ammo since many years. And 1 of them is a professional Reloader, he offers Custom Ammo.
Daan Kemp: yes, this 2500 fps would be fine. Your test method is absolutely the best, true. Yes, this factors are all important. Unfortunately i own until now only one P14 - the first two pictures show their long-range sights. But a second one appeared some weeks ago in the West of Switzerland. After around 27 Years Silence concerning this subject ... ! Trigger use: "I will tell my P14 tonight about your suggestion, of course".. Just take a look.. .
ArizonaBeagle: this 2553 fps for the No. 4 are really interesting, too - once because I have still some of my very first .303 British-Ammo here - and fortuitously it is HXP 174 grs. Imported from Germany, together with the Mark 3 and the No. 4. And second the No. 4 has an a bit shorter barrel.. . This POF-Ammo I don't know yet, on the other side.. .
I'm looking forward to your test-results.. :-) I am curious about them.. .
Greetings Enfield Enforcer
"...the No. 4 has an a bit shorter barrel..." Should be 25". A P-14's was 26" with a 1 in 10 LH twist. Mind you, it was designed to use the .276 Enfield, not the .303.
Keep in mind that the Pattern 14 was intended to use Mk VII ammo with its 174 grain bullet at 2440 FPS. Typical 180 grain loads run a couple hundred FPS less. Said typical loads have been killing big moose here since the 1920's or so.
Rummage around here. There's lots of load data. 303british.com
Hello Sunray, thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunray
Yes, at first the difference seems to be a little one. Having a look at some velocity-data, the impression is another one. I get a bit hope that the P14 converts the powder into higher muzzle velocities than this amazing low 725-730 m/s or 2370-2400 fps. Compared with other .303 British-MV's - 750-760 m/s or around 2500-2525 fps in a No. 4 with Factory 174-180 gr-loads, and compared with the cartridge GP 1911 from Switzerland, too. The K31 reaches with his 650 mm-Barrel in the best case with the Standard Army-Service-Ammo GP 11, short said, a MV of around 780 m/s or 2559 fps. And our GP 11 is not known as a truly strong Army-Service-Ammo-Example and is a rather close relative for the .303 British-Round.
And I have to mention, I would like to use it only on paper targets, hunting is in our country nowadays here not allowed with such calibers. But I want to use it also for distances of more than 300 yards/meters. So I hope for a load within the usual pressures, good enough for maximal distances of 700-800 Meters or 775-875 Yards. Like other service ammo does it, too.. .
I will of course have a careful look to this reloading-Book-title - I say thanks, Sunray :-) I found it already.
How is GP-11 not a truly strong Army Service cartridge? It is more powerful than .303 British, and it is compariable to 7.62 NATO, .30-06, and all the other cartridges of the era which were about the same in terms of velocities and energy (some a little higher, and some a little lower, but all within the same general range).
Standard .303 British loadings can easily get out to 800m, with no issues. They can go farther than that as well provided you do your part.
All those cartridges are in the same power range; most military cartridges of that era are similar in performance. Muzzle velocity is usually used as comparison to brag, without factoring bullet weight. Add bullet weight and the comparison isn't so simple.
Enfield Enforcer, I really do not understand your problem. Take a look at the sight leaf on your rifle, and you will see that it is calibrated for a couple of thousand yards. Even my LP08 Artillery Luger with its 20 cm barrel is calibrated up to 800 meters. And that's using 9mm ammo! I have seen reports of some lads in the South of France firing Enfield No. 8s - .22s - at 300 meters. And myself fired .22 short at 200 meters and a 45-70 at 1000 yards. Any rifle will reach 300 meters, and yes, I include my percussion and flintlock muzzle-loaders in that claim. And any military cartridge rifle will reach 1000 meters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield Enforcer
What are you worrying about? Just follow good reloading practice and, in the interest of your safety and your rifle, don't try for the ultimate velocity.
On the basis of the front-locking system and the overall constructional strength, a P14 might theoretically be able to reach the same muzzle velocity (for the same bullet weight) as an M1917, but since the .303 case is much smaller than the .30-06, it would IMHO be a risky business, requiring faster powder than usual with potential pressure problems.
Greetings from Michigan, USA:
I am not sure if this will be helpful or is the kind of information you're seeking, but here goes: I have a Remington made P14 that I have shot and chronographed quite a bit. I shoot mostly cartridges that I have reloaded but I've fired some factory and a few military loads in my rifle. You mentioned that you were after maximum velocity loads so I'll list what I have.
150 Hornady spire 2874 feet per second (handload)
150 Sierra spitzer 2897 fps (handload)
174 Military FMJ loaded with 37.3 grains of what looks like cordite 2335 fps
180 Remington round nose factory load 2384 fps
180 Sierra spitzer 2642 fps (handload)
Case life is good with this rifle; I have cases that have been fired 6 times and are still in service.
I did some experimenting with a friend's #4 (I often regret not buying that rifle from him--it shot under 3 inch 5-shot groups with almost anything I put through it). Velocities were within a few fps of my P14 with similiar loads, sometimes even a little faster.
I've also done some experimenting with #1 Enfield rifles: Another friend owned 3 of them.
Hello ArtPahl,
many thanks. I have been involved in many other things since this spring, only therefore i answer very late.
Thats really interesting information. And even surprising, too. If I understand it in that way correctly:
The 180 grs-Load reached 2642 f/s that means 805 meters per second, thats a true surprise. If I may ask: what type of case was in use ? Which manufacturer.. .
And the 2874 f/s respectively 2897 f/s = 875 m/s resp. 883 m/s for this two 150 grs-Loads really impress me too.
Greetings from Grison/"Heidiland"
Enfield Enforcer
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPahl
Normal military ammo velocity was about 2430 f/s with 173gr flat bottom spitzer bullets. This was the load the P14/Mk1/4 were sighted for.
Depending on the propellant, bullet shape and weight, rifle condition, etc, velocity may be quite a bit higher without pressure problems. The P14 had a longer barrel than the No1/4 series and would probably get higher velocities if the propellant used is tailored, possibly slightly slower burning for the longer barrel? Or a different shape bullet.
Thanks Daan Kemp and ArtPahl,Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
Really good. Now thats exactly the kind of informations, I have been looking for. The longer P14-Barrel can bring not only similar velocities - and trajectories - that f.e. the No.4 does. The use of carefully produced handloads can effect still clearly positiver results. Without pressure problems.. .
I couldn't be sure before whether it is meaningful to try that or not. To give once someday an corresponding order to an experienced handloader... There are one or two such persons in my environment which do that for a long time. And I don't reload.. .
Have a good day !
Many greetings from"Heidiland"
(St. Moritz etc.)
ArtPahl, which powder have you used by loading the 180gr Sierra Spitzer-Ammo for 2642 fps, please ? And which charge ?
Now im in contact again with my reloading-specialist.
Many thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPahl
Enfield Enforcer wrote:
"....... hunting is in our country nowadays here not allowed with such calibers".
What are you breeding over there that a .303 will not bring down? Woolly Mammoths?
Here in Australia, the cartridge certainly works on Red and Fallow deer, feral pigs, goats, water buffalo, etc..
Enfield Enforcer,
Per your request: 180 Sierra spitzer .311 dia. bullet (#2310)
47 grains of IMR4320
CCI #200 primer
Remington case
2642 fps is the average of 30 shots measured at 10 ft. from the muzzle with an Oehler 35P chronograph.
Hello Bruce in OzQuote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
no, here in Grison are no Mammoths or similar big animals... :-)) We have a few wolfes, sometimes a brownbear and the usual animals like capricorns and deer here. I didn't create that hunting law in Grison. I also have my trouble with that. The minimum caliber is .401 inches or 10.2 mm. The 10,3x60 mm R is the most favoured cartridge in our country here, even since a long time.. .
I don't mistrust the .303 British-Cartridge in this relation, by the way.. Other people are stuck here, it seems like :-(
Greetings
Many thanks, ArtPahl ! :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtPahl
That is great. I have been supposing a Vihtavuori.. . As example the N135 or N140, maybe the N540.
I will test my P14 and M 17 probably on next saturday... .
Many greetings
Enfield Enforcer