The Guns of Degenham, Part 2

Someone very closely related to the Sterling Engineering Co has recently purchased the rights to TGOD and is considering reprinting it plus the aftermath of the company and its structure and...... and.........

For my part, he has asked whether there is anything else that should be included, specifically within the original book part. For example he will now be permitted to include previously restricted information/documentation on the Mk5/L34. Plus additional info on the variations of the Mk6 and horrendous Mk7's. His words, not mine I hasted to add!

Go on then............ You heard it here first

Good news; adding another set of initials to the dust jacket?

The documents from the factory "Mk5" armourers kit would be a nice addition.


Photo of the L34A1 mag-well markings (IIRC it's a line drawing in the book?).**see below**
Edit to correct: p.178 illustrates a photo of No: US-66-A003 mag-well markings. This would be the 3rd UK military production "L34A1".


a little clarification regarding the salvaged Fazakerly "L2A3" bodies, and their Sterling "Mk4" rebrand and subsequent "out of range" serial numbers.

Great news Peter .... I await with anticipation!

My wife would be wearing my "whats its" for ear rings if I bought one of the originals that occasionally come up for sale at loopy prices!

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….he has asked whether there is anything else that should be included..

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If it’s possible, I’d like to see some information on the 7.62 prototype Sterling rifles.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=27423

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Originally Posted by Vincent

If it’s possible, I’d like to see some information on the 7.62 prototype Sterling rifles.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=27423

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Centrefire automatic light machine gun - Sterling, experimental - Royal Armouries collections
Centrefire automatic rifle - Sterling, experimental - Royal Armouries collections

It may be slightly annoying if you've only just purchased a second hand copy off Amazon (judging by the prices currently being asked). :crying:

Guns of Dagenham: Lanchester, Patchett, Sterling: Amazon.co.uk: Peter Laidler, David Howroyd: 9780889352049: Books

I was going to buy the book and have been waiting for one in my price range for years (with prices going up all the time) so a reprint a most welcome, even if it remains unchanged. 👍

1 thing that has always bugged me -

all of the published sources (including the Sterling user manual) say that there are 6 rows of 12 holes in the L34/mk5 barrel, but a simple count shows that there are 6 rows of 13 holes.

Are the 13 holes only found in the Mk5?( or L34a1?) Or is it just a misprint that never got corrected?

Attachment 99534

13 holes = L34 firing Mk2z for obvious reasons. Some of the other Q's asked have been answered on this forum very recently. But I'll answer them again later....

Added at request of someone that didn't understand. 2z= hot propellant with faster bullet. Need to slow the bullet down to sub sonic means venting off more propellant gas so extra ring of holes that JUST does it...... but only JUST!

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Originally Posted by Vincent

If it’s possible, I’d like to see some information on the 7.62 prototype Sterling rifles.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=27423

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Ah yes Vincent, that interesting contraption, did anyone ever get to find out which Dr Frankenstein 'created' that beast of of a rifle.

Looks like it would shake your fillings loose!

Apart from the obvious Sterling pistol grip, nobody at Sterling seems to know anything about that rifle, not least, David Howroyd. And you'd think that he would probably know - him being the engineering manager and then director of the company.

As for the Q in post 2. Ord were destroying large amounts of worn out Sterling SMG's in the late 70's and 8o's and as Sterling had always had good relations with Ordnance, supplying spares and tech info regarding the use of the ex India order guns broken up for spares, they asked if they could buy back the remaining 6,000 or so ex India Mk4 KR marked casings. They did - and these brand new KR marked/numbered casings were made up into complete guns and sold on the market along with the current 'S' marked guns. And a healthy profit was made as they'd already been paid for once so all Sterling had to do was to assemble new parts into them.

At the same time, Sterling asked to purchase the ex military guns that had been reduced to scrap by welding (see photo in book) or guillotining. This was agreed and as 'scrap carriers' Sterling were required to become industrial scrap merchants!!!!!!! These old casings were totally unpicked of thousands of valuable parts by the work force during slack periods and even better, on a bit of overtime pocket money on Saturday mornings. Many tons of parts including 'welded detail' trigger frames, mag housings, front and rearsight protectors, latch brackets, finger guards etc etc were unpicked, tumbled and re-used on new production guns. KR, US, UF (not the flanged type) marked mag housings were sent out on new made or FTR guns to other nations.

It is for this reason that you will occasionally see F/Fazakerley 'welded detail' marked parts on Sterling made guns. Backsight ears and foresight protectors are the most common.

I have been asked to elaborate on this in more detail for the new edition of the book

I will be up for a copy of the book when it is reprinted! :thup:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

13 holes = L34 firing Mk2z for obvious reasons. Some of the other Q's asked have been answered on this forum very recently. But I'll answer them again later....

Added at request of someone that didn't understand. 2z= hot propellant with faster bullet. Need to slow the bullet down to sub sonic means venting off more propellant gas so extra ring of holes that JUST does it...... but only JUST!

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Just to clarify where the question regarding how many ports in the L34A1/Mk5 barrel comes from:

Sterling Mk5/L34A1 1967 dated addendem to the EMER states 72 holes.

The EMER dated 1969 states 78 holes.

Sterling commercial user manual c.1974 states 72 holes.

The Guns of Dagenham book states 72 holes, but the illustrated barrel shows 78 holes.

Just a typo that Sterling never caught and corrected? Or did the Mk5 have 6 fewer ports than the L34A1?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It is for this reason that you will occasionally see F/Fazakerley 'welded detail' marked parts on Sterling made guns. Backsight ears and foresight protectors are the most common.

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I probably would, if I knew what to look for. How does one tell they are Fazakerley made parts?

There is a small F57 or F58 mark on the part. Generally speaking, any part marked with an F indicated Fazakerley - which in itself generally indicated Faulty.

Does the number following the "F" indicate the year that the part was made or is it a code referring to something else, please?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

There is a small F57 or F58 mark on the part. Generally speaking, any part marked with an F indicated Fazakerley - which in itself generally indicated Faulty.

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Thanks, Peter.

Sterling bought parts and services from other companies to make the Mk4. Did Fazakerley buy some of the same parts and services from the same companies or were they just very good copies?

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Does the number following the "F" indicate the year that the part was made or is it a code referring to something else, please?

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It's the year of manufacture F10

I'm not sure that Sterling actually bought in complete MADE parts from other suppliers except for the consumables such as the allen bolts, pins etc and the like. They were a true MANUFACTURER asopposed to an assembly plant, unlike Enfield and BAe with the SA80. So far as the backsight axis pins and butt frame pins, Sterling got those in lengths and had a machine that could cut to length and countersink each end in seconds...., by the bucketful, They were a VERY profitable spare part for Sterling because each time they were stripped out, they had to be replaced! Pistol Grips from Helix, the punched casing tubes from A&P but that was simply the bare punched and cut-to-length tube. The same would apply to Fazakerley - and Enfield too! Sterling did buy in the pre-punched and folded top butt frame because the steel supplier who supplied them pre-cut and punched could also fold them at the same time for pence. So it was really a question of economics

Good stuff, Peter. Thanks.

Attachment 99652

I see F 57 and UF stamped on the grip frame. UF 58 is stamped on the flanged type magazine housing. Do you know why the flanged type magazine housings were not reused Sterling?

I don’t see any other markings on the other welded detail. Even the endcap locking ring has no markings. It does have the fixing pin but clearly different from the Sterling locking rings and the cap is hard to get on and off.

I know the pistol grip could have been replaced, but it’s interesting that it’s doesn’t have the Sterling patent markings on the right side. You can also see where the tail was bobbed unevenly. Done by hand from the look of it.

I can’t see a spot weld on the butt stock trunnion. It looks like it’s just brazed on.

The whole Fazakerley episode is interesting to me. It’s amazing the government would go to so much trouble to copy the Mk4 Sterling.

Sterling simply weren't geared up to use ex Fazakerley flanged mag housings as the fixing method differed, i.e; flanged. The basic housing was a very simple and quick item to make. The shape was pressed out in two hits and power-wrapped over an automatic former. The Government were desperate to keep the strategic Fazakerley arms factory open, seemingly at all costs. Alas, no amount of help could help the industrial unrest situation at the strike bound Fazakerley open. Same as many other factories there, before and since..........

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Sterling simply weren't geared up to use ex Fazakerley flanged mag housings as the fixing method differed, i.e; flanged.

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Thanks, Peter.

Attachment 99673

I was wondering if the gaps between the Fazakerley flanged mag housing and the casing was the reason. The Sterling housing doesn’t have them and is clearly better thought-out and made.

On the Sterling made Mk4 there’s a very small indented ring in the casing just forward of the magazine housing (where the barrel flange sits inside). I am guessing the ring was put there after the inside of casing was reamed to size and then reamed to provide a smaller ID for the barrel flange to fit in?

On the Fazakerley made gun the ring is much larger and deeper. Also, it doesn’t go all the way around the casing. There’s a section missing in front of the magazine housing.

Attachment 99674

On the inside you can see the reamer took off considerably less material on the right side, making the ID of the ring offset to left (where the gap in the ring is). The barrel flange touches the right side of the ring and there’s a small space on the left. How did this happen? Was the reamer allowed to take the path of least resistance? In the Sterling made gun the barrel flange is centered in the casing.

Also, only the ring appears to have been reamed on the Fazakerley. The rest of the tube is smooth, with no tool marks. The production methods at Fazakerley must have been quite different than at Sterling.

I'm glad that you spotted that Vince. A little known point.............. That ring was pressed into the tube in order to allow a very slightly smaller diameter rear barrel diameter to be used. This was because if the exact diameter was used, even the smallest knock to the casing would/could prevent the barrel being removed or inserted. So slightly smaller inside diameter at the point where the rear barrel seating sits. If you look carefully, it doesn't go right around. Just a small squeeze from the top and bottom.

This feature didn't appear on the drawings that Fazakerley had acquired. Whether they were reverse engineered or pirated, nobody ever established - and it was a feature of the copyright trial too! But Fazakerley thought that this was a small groove cut around the casing and copied it. Alas, it proved wasteful and costly because the first several hundreds of guns (no figure known but probably 1000 or so) simply bent or broke in service at that point simply because the casing material thickness had been reduced in diameter

Very interesting, Peter. I bet you have lots more good stuff like that for your new book. I can’t wait to get a copy.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

the first several hundreds of guns simply bent or broke in service at that point simply because the casing material thickness had been reduced in diameter

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Most disconcerting when your SMG goes to pieces in your hands during firing...

It's noy MY book as such but James Edmistons update of my book plus some. And a LOT more about the shenanigans about the zillions of variations of the Mk6's, and shysters running the dealerships and antics of the importers in the US. It's up and running as we speak and published in the UK

Peter, what has happened to the Bren book? Is it still in the works?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It's up and running as we speak and published in the UK

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How do I buy a copy?

Dagenham book. We are meeting the new publishers in May
Bren book, the written work is here plus some of the photos but LMO lost most of them including the rare historic ones..........

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Dagenham book. We are meeting the new publishers in May
Bren book, the written work is here plus some of the photos but LMO lost most of them including the rare historic ones..........

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Sorry to hear this. (LMO)? I know LMAO, but not LMO....

Long Mountain Outfitters / Chipotle Publishing / Small Arms Review magazine. A massive frigging disappointment. I'm waiting for those photos to show up in someone else's book because I'm clueless as to how they could possibly lose them.

Woah. I have not followed nor heard much about Small Arms Review, Long Mountain Outfitters OR Dan Shea in many years. Are any of those entities still present and viable?

I am suspecting that Dan was untrusted with a large reference library of images ( and sadly appears like they were originals or one offs) and have now come up missing. That is a HUGE disconnect as all publishers should be treating that sort of material with respect and accountability.

Sounds like that is another story all by itself. Sad to hear if that is what transpired??

Any further updates gentlemen?
I know these things take loads of work and time to come to fruition and that there are extenuating circumstances and covid.

I am always interested in a copy but not at a price on the secondary market that doesn't benefit Peter Laidler anyway.

The new Sterling book is available from Pen and Sword Books: Military History and Nostalgia Book Publishers. If you ask them, they can probably tell you who is stocking them here in the USA. The price on the jacket is 40 GBP or $60 USD.

I bought my copy from Hamiliton Books, Conn. Off the internet. p.

Thanks! I missed any splash it made when it came out.

I have not been able to compare a chapter by chapter page count: Does it have the same amount of Lanchester content as the "Guns of Dagenham"?

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Originally Posted by AD-4NA

Thanks! I missed any splash it made when it came out.

I have not been able to compare a chapter by chapter page count: Does it have the same amount of Lanchester content as the "Guns of Dagenham"?

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The content of the book been added to slightly, not reduced.

There are a few new drawings, an added plate of photos, and a few added paragraphs.

A general comment, not specifically to the Lanchester.

I realise that I have a vested interest here, in the sales of the Mk2 version of The Guns of Dagenham. But I can already see it......... In a couple of years, when it's sold out and there is a demand, those that didn't get one will be hopping up and down like frogs on fire just wishing that they'd got one when it was on the shelves - and complaining about the high prices they are having to pay.

It's worth it just for the factory drawings of the L2 and L34 on the front and rear inner covers

THE HISTORY OF THE SMALL-ARMS MADE BY THE STERLING ARMAMENTS COMPANY. Excellence in adversiity published by Pen and Sword books.

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

The content of the book been added to slightly, not reduced.

There are a few new drawings, an added plate of photos, and a few added paragraphs.

A general comment, not specifically to the Lanchester.

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I figured, thanks!

I've said it before, folks; buy books! Some of mine are doing better as investments than guns.