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I have a bunch of POF mk7 1968 ammo and a few hundred rounds of royal laboratories 1939 mk7 ball... 303 British. I'm wondering if the bullet itself, of the POF ammo is constructed in the same manner as British made mk 7 ball? Such as a lead slug in the rear and a aluminum or wood pulp core to fill the tip... If not, how would the POF bullet be made? I assume if the PoF says mk7 on the box, it should be close to the British standard, right? Thanks. Glad to be here on this forum.
I don't know about the actual internal construction of the projectiles but I'll tell you that I tested Mk.7 cordite ammo from England, Canada, Iraq, and Pakistan many years ago and it was amazingly consistent in accuracy and point of impact. The only drawback is that the primers may be damaged from age and poor storage causing some duds or hangfires. I'm guessing the projectiles of all the producing countries would have been manufactured to the same specifications. At any rate, the quality control and consistency was impressive in my opinion. I just wish a bullet maker here in the USA would endeavor to make a proper 174 grain flat base Mk.7 projectile for handloaders. I think they're missing the boat because there is a demand for them that continues to grow. In the meantime, I stick to the 180 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter.
Yes,the pof mk7 bullets are made to the same specs as Brit, Canadian, South African ect mk7 bullets. Somewhere around here I have a sectioned pof mk7 bullet showing what appears to be some sort of fiber nose filler. IF I can locate it I'll post a photo but don't hold your breath as it's been a while since I last had eyes on it.
I pulled one POF and one Royal Lab bullet and compared them. Both are same diameter and same length.... Both are 7.92mm or 0.312 English diameter and 32.83mm/1.293 English inch. Thanks for the reply, it's nice to know it's true Mk7 standards. I would certainly love to see the pic you posted, I'll do some hunting here myself for it. ( I've never pulled a .303 Enfield bullet before and was surprised how long they were, definitely high BC bullets I believe, even without a boat tail.)Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
I actually took a file to the POF 68 dated ammo and cut the tip off... Wood pulp i believe. I can post pictures if anyone is interested.
P.O.F (Possibility Of Firing) used some 1967 vintage stuff for a while and it was crud would have done better with a handful of wheat...…...
InI had several hundred rounds of paki 303 years ago. Mostly click bangs with the occasional dud for variety. After the first box I salvaged the bullets/cordite and loaded it into cases with modern primers. Shot it in a tired old ex-indian T. Accuracy was quite good now that it would go off
Instantaneously rather than minutes later or not at all like before.
Hmm. Pakistani ammo in an Indian rifle....wonder how close that came to causing an international incident?:yikes:
My experience with .303 military surplus ammunition has been that once the stuff is 20 years old or so, hangfires are not uncommon, regardless of which British Commonwealth country made it. On the other hand, American and German ammunition from as far back as World War all seems to function fine. I do not know if it is a difference in the primers, methods of sealing, storage conditions or phase of the moon that is the reason. As far as the bullets go, the Radway Green 47 and the POF 66 Mk VII had point fillers. The Greek HXP 75 headstamp did not. I have a couple thousand rounds of Iraqi surplus. The quality is indifferent and it is loaded with bullets having cupro-nickel jackets long after most everyone was using gilding metal.
I sure do miss the Winchester and Greek ammo that was around 30 some years ago. Privi Partizan and S&B make some nice, albeit pricey, FMJ ammo, but NOT with flat base bullet.
I have fired 198 to be exact of the royal lab 303 mk7 39 dated ammo, cupron jacket... Had 2 complete duds and a hand full of rounds required a second strike. I'm happy with those numbers. I had absolutely ZERO hang fires or duds with this POF ammo, I got an excellent batch, which hasn't been my experience in the past from previous purchasing of it (it used to be pennies a round).. To be fair I only shot 31 rounds... Hopefully this batch of 416 rounds left all do the same. I don't feel bad for shooting the 1939 Royal Lab ammo, I've had it a longtime and im not getting any younger and neither is the ammo. It feels good to shoot history... But im sure that will make someone cringe while reading this. I only buy ammo that i will shoot, thats my thoughts on it. Im just glad i can enjoy it i suppose... I have 100 rounds of the RL 1939 left that will be shot when the time is right... A perfectly sunny spring day in the future. Thanks for your comment, i do appreciate it.
---------- Post added at 06:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------
I've had the same experience in the past when the stuff was like 10 pence a shot... But this newer batch I've had a while has had ZERO issues. I guess it's luck of the draw.
---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------
I like what you did there. My original plans were to pull the bullets and cordite then reload into a new primed cases.... But I'm lazy. Hasnt happened yet. This has been a good batch for me so far. ZERO click bangs or duds.
It really must be storage/temperature extremes that kills the primers. There is good and bad of all Mk.7 as old tanker says. Incidentally, the tightest groups in my little Mk.7 accuracy/consistency test was from Iraqi dated 1962.
I totally agree... It's hard to beat mk7 ball, especially in British made cartridge cases... I'm definitely going to shoot for accuracy soon with my royal lab 1939 ammo. My no4 mk2 luckily has an awesome barrel with no wear or pitting. I originally bought this POF ammo for the purpose of pulling the corodite and mk7 bullets from the POF and loading it into new primed cases but since it's performance is like new, i dont see a point... Not yet anyways. I have had a bad batch of POF many years ago in a different country and the ammo at the time was less than 20 years old if i remember correctly. Storage is key. I have emptied the 32 round pOF boxes and dumped them in a ammo can, with a 10 gram silica packets... Maybe that helps, maybe not. If the primer is already gone then it is, but i thought it may help. Thanks for the reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
I have sectioned some RG MKVII projectiles and they had the fibre filler but the jacket was copper washed steel!
I much prefer Mk.7z with the nitro powder. The cordite stuff is OK but not for my purposes around here. Those in the USA who haven't bought any of the German MEN 83 dated Mk.7z from SG Ammo are missing the boat. It's fantastic stuff. I was range testing a recently restored No.4T yesterday and it was shooting consistent groups around 2" at 100 yards. Considering the spec is 3" at 100, I certainly won't complain. They raised the price $20 a can but it's still well worth the money.
Given the way ALL cordite-filled .303 ammo is made, if the price is right, drag out your press-mounted bullet puller and recover the Mk 7 bullets.
Load these into nice, fresh boxer-primed cases with new primers and the propellant of your choice. The intertubes and tree-ware manuals abound with suitable recipes. The usual ammo-loading caveats apply. You will immediately notice that seated to correct nominal length, the bullet cannelure lines up about halfway down the neck. That is because CORDITE loaded .303 was filled with the "bundle" topped with a glazed cardboard disc and the bullet sat on top of this BEFORE the case was final-formed / necked. The cannelure is there to retain a bituminous waterproofing and catch a couple of "stab" crimps. This was an industrial hangover from the days of compressed black-powder pellets used as fuel, starting with the Mighty 577-.450 for the Martini Henry.
The past is a funny place, but lots of things not only "seemed like a good idea at the time", but actually worked.
The more enthusiastic can apply a Lee "Factory Crimp" if desired (Bren and Vickers gun drivers, take note).
ANY case containing a 1/4" diameter, copper-coloured primer is suspect. If you luck upon some ammo with post WW2 FN headstamps and the smaller .217" BRASS coloured (for brass it is) primer, Berdan, of course, grab all that your truck can carry and you can sneak into the house. The FN stuff with the white wrapper label is essentially Mk7Z. But be aware that the FN with the "PINK" label / wrapper on the box is TRACER, albeit very DIM tracer these days. BOTH of these FN packagings from the late 1940s / early Fifties will also bear the words "Pour Bren", providing a hint at its originally intended usage.
I section my Royal lab 1939 and it had aluminum tipQuote:
Originally Posted by martins8589
---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 PM ----------
What is mk7z? Is that just a solid lead slug? I bought some of the MEN 83 lot 8 and I assumed it's solid lead bullet. I chronographed it, 2388 fps average out of my no4 mk2 fazakerly... About 10 feet from muzzle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Mk7 Z indicates a "nitro-cellulose granular powder. The bullet is the tried and true one as used in standard Mk7.
One of the reasons for its introduction is that Cordite has a fairly severe flash. This is a bit of a liability when used in aircraft guns at night, a common practice in the RAF.
Almost all North American production was essentially Mk7Z. the exceptions were the huge production from the Canadian Dominion Arsenal plants (DA. DAC, DAL, DAQ headstamps), a different company from Defence Industries (DI / DIL / DIV headstamps) that seems to have all been boxer primed and NC powder filled. There is, apparently a "different" DI headstamp that originates in India; probably a mercuric / Cordite product; never seen one, however.
I have not found any references to US manufactured, Mercuric-primed, Cordite filled .303 ammo; anyone else? Bear in mind that the US was making contract .303 going back to Mk 6 days, as well as 7.62 x 54R for the Russians, along with whatever other orders they could find.
The Russians appear to have made .303 as well, probably to feed into their Ross rifles.
I was under the impression that mk7 bullets had to have some sort of filler at the tip, eith aluminum of wood pulp or something else, other a solid lead slug. I believe this MEN ammo is solid lead, with no fillers, does that make it a mk7 bullet? Kind of confused here lol. Yes it is a granulated powder.