Printable View
I seem to remember a post from Peter on the 'old' CSP forum re the Ishapore screw and the fact that it was NOT only Ishapore that used it.
It was also used by the Brits / Malaya during some FTR's.
Did anyone keep a copy of the post or could Peter re-post ?
Thanks
Briefly, our EY SMLE's that were in mobilisation store all had the infamous screw BUT it was actually 'designed/invented/developed' by the UK and is still listed in our EMER's. I saw two No4's with the mod about a year or so ago when some DP No4's were withdrawn from the cadets in the South West. It was to pevent the waste of otherwise serviceable fore-ends should they split longitudinally from the front trigger guard screw forwards
I do remember what you mentioned. What I seem to remember is Peter saying something to the effect that British armourers would sometimes remove the steel screw and replace it with a hardwood tapered dowel.
That's correct. On a service No4, the screw was seen as a bit of a quick fix. Better to remove it, open up the split, squeeze modern wood adhesive into it , squeeze closed then force a tapered oak dowel into the hole.
If you were REALLY trying to impress the examiner or were on a trade test, you'd use a small dowel at the far end of the split too.
It's an old problem with civilian owners/shooters of old Enfields. Armourers would take great pride in the quality of their wood patching and equally great pride in repairing them butts/fore-ends/handguards with the most superb patches. But these things are almost frowned on in civilian circles.
As I said many moons ago, An Armourer would comment 'WOW, lok at those patches'. But a civilian would comment 'UGH ..... look at those patches'
'One mans meat is another mans poison' as they say!
As matter of interest, do many forumers keep the original wood patches on their rifles through choice...................?
I like "my" patch - (just in front of the magazine) its part of the rifles history - just wish my woodworking skills were half as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I know what you mean Al and others. Some Armourers were absolute magicians..... I was crap and best left to the old rough and ready Bren guns. But I used to do the old L42 and No8 fore-ends just to keep my hand in.
Further to patching - if damaged woodwork needs to be repaired, I suppose there are two ways of approaching it these days: try for a near invisible epoxy repair, or perform an armourer style inlay.
From time to time stocks salvaged from Indian DP rifles are reused. These have semicircular cuts in the woodwork where the pin was set through the barrel and welded in. I have seen these cuts reparied with semicircular patches. This has a poor appearance, and simply announces the origin of the replacement stock. If an armourer style dovetailed inlay is used, the repair looks correct and period.
What a wonderful medium wood is to work with. Armourers would find it a challenge today if they had to patch plastic (which they may do. Pass the bondo!)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...patch001-1.jpg
Ditto. I would only add the patches add a "human" factor indicating at some time in the dim past skilled hands were tending to my rifle. I consider patches sort of personalize a rifle. One question for Peter. What specialized tools were employed to do these patches so very precisely? Obviously they were razor sharp!!! Could someone who may have a set of them post some pics??Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
What tools do we/did we use? Just razor sharp different sized and types of chisels, small saws, wood rasps and normal hand files....
I remember the first 'plastic' wood we were charged with repairing were the plastic butts and handguards from the first AR15's and M16's. At first we used some epoxy material that we'd used previously on the Paxolin (?) Owen gun grips. It wasn't successful. We tried to get info from the US Forces in Vietnam and from those that came down from Thailand but there wasn't a repair procedure there as it was a direct replacement of the broken/smashed part. Later we used a reinforced glass fibre. It wasn't very good/successful. There were all manner of ideas but in reality, we just had to move with the times and repair by replacement.
When the plastic material came in for the L1A1/SLR, we were told that we could get 18 sets of plastic handguards for the price of a wood set and about 22 butts per wood butt.
Wasn't the L84A1 initialy called the "airfix rifle" because bits kept falling off the stock and they used glue to put them back on?;)
Hello out there , I shot my 2A Ishy and when I loaded the mag the rounds would not feed, the problem was the mag kept on slipping down. Can I fix this? Next is there a front sight adjusting tool and where can I find one.
Thanks
Martin
The Swiss do a neat wood repair. This is on my K31.
Regards
peter
I saved a few photos as I like the look of them, but did not save the owners names.
I have never ever replaced a foreend or butt stock due to having patches here or there.
After all - as has been said before me-- they are a great sign of the history of each and every rifle's service. Some more severe than others.
I have rifles with patches in the following places.
a) foreend- ahead of the magazine "king screw area"
b) foreend sides -- one or the other but not both on the same foreend.
c) foreend- top sides -to repair a chipped off secton I suppose.
d) foreend- tip area or near the front of the foreend.
e) butt- top near the butt plate
f) butt-near the bottom of the butt plate
That about covers all the patches I have.
Then there are all the other rifles waiting to be treated so rough that they will require patching--ya right!
Cheers
Terry in Victoria BC:beerchug:
In the late 1960' or early 1970's there was a supplement issued for an M16A1 Technical Manual (roughly the equivalent of your EMER's, Peter) that was directed at the repair of stocks and handguards. It contained a criteria for repair and instructions and illustrations of the method of repair. The reference section of the manual listed the materials to be used. I no longer have the manual but I'm certain someone in CSP world does. I do recall that after repairing the item was to be sprayed with flat black paint. I don't believe the repair process was utilized very long. It soon became a better option to just replace the damaged item. Those early M16A1 buttstocks are now a collector's item.
A life long bug bear for me has been one of my best mates who was/is a cabinet maker on sail boats. My best, most focused, dam the hours make it perfect wood work always looked clumsy beside anything Graeme did while he was just coasting through what he'd term his casual wood work. Some people must have resin and wood chips in their veins.
RJWT....., there's a saying among cabinet makers that '...there's nowt (nothing) as good as wood' and it's true. I'm no cabinet maker or even good woodworker but my dad was reasonably good. After he died, I was a young soldier in Malaya and my mum sent me a piece of an old gnarled plum tree that was in our garden that my dad used to cherish and prune etc every year. My friend, another Armourer from Castlemaine made a set of new wood grips for my issue revolver out of the wood..., just for sentiment really, as a reminder of home. I wonder where No2 revolver Y-628 is now!
Yep, there's nowt as good as wood............... And the old plum tree is still in her garden and she still sits under it in the summer
i thought the ishapore screw was something you got in one of the red light districts just outside the indian arsnel.
I agree with the concept of "nothing wrong with a visible repair" - I believe it is respectful of the work that went into making the part - repairing it keeps it alive instead of throwing it out. Thank my dad for this.
Each time I see a nice repair on parts I get I'm all happy. I learn a lot from these. Recently I repaired a Mosin Nagant stock I have, mimicking what I saw on other repaired parts. (next time I promise to dovetail)
https://www.milsurps.com/imagehostin...c9909cb136.jpg
"F I R" 1931 India Rebuild - 1913 Enfield "Sht L E" III rifle
Picked up this rifle at a yard sale in New England back in the 1990s. There are no import or exports mark to be found.
The left side of the receiver is marked " F I R " with the letter " I " lower with an upward facing broad arrow. Upon the right side of the butt stock is a round one-inch cartouche with the letters " I A S " having the " A " lowered and broad arrow facing upward. Appears that the rifle was re-blued at some time in a pleasing deep "fire blue" tone like that seen on vintage American military guns.
Stock wood looks to be walnut. Rear sight is from a later era. Then there is the "Ishapore Screw", which is plain to see. A casual observation would say that this pre-WWI veteran Lee Enfield rifle saw more than one factory overhaul during it's 96-year life time. The bore on this rifle is dazzling with deep grooves!
Anybody know if " F I R " stands for " Factory Ishapore Rebuild " ? Then too . . . does " I A R " signify " Ishaphore Arsenal Rebuild " ? Would suppose that being a true ENFIELD factory, England built rifle, that it was probably a British Army arm that did service in India with repair and overhaul work logically done there.
Like most of these, this rifle must have stories tell. We can only guess at where this Lee Enfield has been and the history it has witnessed.
:beerchug:
Here is an observation.
British rebuilds are marked FTR which is short for Factory Thorough Rebuild.
Indian rebuilds are marked FR which is short for Factory Rebuild.
The India Govt acceptance stamp was variation on that of the British, a broad arrow over a capital I
My point is that I don't read it as a three letter sequence, it might not be read as FIR. I can see the Arrow over I acceptance mark with F and R either side of it.
So F R either side of an Indian acceptance mark.
Indian FR had the tendancey to sand off most of the original markings on the rifle and restamp with their own info. My money would be on that this is an ex British rifle supplied to India where it was rebuilt and made like new. It was duly inspected and received govt acceptance stamp in 1931. It was marked FR to show it was a refurb.
The mark on the buttstock is the stamp of the 'Inspectorate of Small Arms' another Indian inspection stamp.
Here's my go at it on an unused No 4 Mk2 Indian forend. There was a bit of damage and I thought it worthwhile to repair it. It came up well, you can't even feel it. I oiled it and it looks good and should darken with a few decades.
An I'll put in my Ishapore screw repair too.
If you want to see some modern patching check the black powder forum for my Brunswick restoration. Or here are some other examples of work I've been doing on commonwealth stocks:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN1642-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN1721-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN2318-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN2319-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN2260-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN2317-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN2179-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN2180-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN2176-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN2177-1.jpg
Alright, you win...
:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by tbonesmith
Regards,
Doug
ps: considering this thread's original post start date is almost a year old, for those that may have missed it, here's a later associated MKL article by Peter laidler. ;)
GETTING RID OF YOUR ‘Ishy’ Screw (by Peter Laidler)