A Couple Seriously Hideous Winchester 70s

Hey all!

Just picked a couple of these (both essentially set up the same). They sure are ugly but I bet they did whatever they were designed for rather well.

So, what is that? What type of competition were these used in? Any thoughts on value? I could easily break these down for parts and do well but I'd like to sell them complete.

Full disclosure...I will be using any information I get to aid in selling these things. I don't want their hideousness rubbing off on my other guns :lol:

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Set up for shooting the US National Match course of fire. Discipline shot at both the state and national level. The Nationals are held at Camp Perry, Ohio every summer.
Course of fire includes standing, sitting and prone, slow and rapid fire, out to 600y.
Note that the rear receiver bridge is cut for charger loading, for the rapid fire match.
Assuming the bores are good, the rifles could still be used in competition.
Stock style looks to be the Dunlop pattern.

So are they military or civilian rifles for a military competition?

I'm seeing dollar signs, my friend. Any thoughts on value?

They sure are impressive, not ugly at all. The value in the complete rifle will be in how good the barrel is still. If the barrels are 'shot out' they will be good enough for reasonably accurate shooting but not at national level.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

The value in the complete rifle will be in how good the barrel is still.

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Good note! I should have them in my hands late next week or so. I'll be able to update on bore condition then.
For context, in the same auction I bought a National Match M1 Garand. There were a few other target-type firearms in there as well. Someone had quite the collection!

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

They sure are impressive, not ugly at all. The value in the complete rifle will be in how good the barrel is still. If the barrels are 'shot out' they will be good enough for reasonably accurate shooting but not at national level.

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The value of the complete rifle will be based on how factory original they are, not just on barrel condition. Any mods(with possible exception to those proven to have been done by Winchester or special order options) will decrease value. We already know the stocks aren't factory and it's highly possible the triggers and barrels aren't either, and one looks to have been re-blued. Factory barrels will have the WP proof on the chambers left side and most of the time a date stamp at 6 o'clock and unslotted low profile ramp front sights. Target grade m70's triggers were stamped with either the word target or a "T". From the pics they look heavily modified and won't be worth anywhere near what one in original trim would be.

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

From the pics they look heavily modified and won't be worth anywhere near what one in original trim would be.

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I don't know the value of an original though either...or what an original looks like.
I took a gamble but as I said, as a pile of parts (sights, bolt, receiver, stock) they're worth probably 200 more than I paid.

If someone comes along and goes "Oh yeah, those are worth about $2k," then I'm definitely not going to sell them as parts haha.

Also, I don't know what to call it. Typically I just search GunBroker and completed Rock Island auctions to determine ballpark values. However, if I search for "target model 70" I'm covered up with results that look nothing like these things.

The Winchester Arms Collectors Association would be the place to find out exactly what you have and their values.
Whatever you do dont get in no hurry to part them out just yet. You've no doubt heard the saying to never say never with Enfields, well when it comes to Winchesters, pre-war especially, it goes double.

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

The Winchester Arms Collectors Association would be the place to find out exactly what you have and their values.

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Good advice. I've posted there as well. I'll cross-update as applicable. Thanks!

You have a pretty penny. Even thou they are up graded by the previous owner to there own target preference. They will still bring premium money to some one starting out in the target field. They sell for alot more than the parts. I sell tons of parts an to break up a perfectly good rifle is a last resort. Just hold firm an once word gets out what you have in the shooting field they will sell.

In the target shooting sport rifles are 'improved' to meet the match or sport rules and regulations. The barrels are often changed when they are 'shot out', other parts changed as regulations change, etc.

The value in these target rifles mustn't be compared to original out of-the-box ones, but as a tool-in-being for the sport. Thus the condition of the various parts directly relates to the purpose, the specific shooting sport it has been fine tuned for. With this in mind they would probably make perfect entry level or beginner equipment for that specific shooting sport, which has already been mentioned in this thread. If their origin could be determined, ie previous owners, it would be even better as it could be sold as "kjlkj" rifle that scored "ooii" at "oijoj" match/es.

I appreciate all the advice. I have posted at the Winchester forum too.

Sounds like the long and short of it is finding out exactly what kind of competition it was used in.
Then, perhaps, I’ll be able to find some comparable sales of other rifles.
For reference, I only paid about $425 for each rifle. Since I didn’t know what I was buying, I took a crack at the parts value. Those sights are worth quite a bit, I know that.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

In the target shooting sport rifles are 'improved' to meet the match or sport rules and regulations. The barrels are often changed when they are 'shot out', other parts changed as regulations change, etc.

The value in these target rifles mustn't be compared to original out of-the-box ones, but as a tool-in-being for the sport. Thus the condition of the various parts directly relates to the purpose, the specific shooting sport it has been fine tuned for. With this in mind they would probably make perfect entry level or beginner equipment for that specific shooting sport, which has already been mentioned in this thread. If their origin could be determined, ie previous owners, it would be even better as it could be sold as "kjlkj" rifle that scored "ooii" at "oijoj" match/es.

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Daan, I respectfully disagree, from a collectors POV. In the U.S. pre-64 Winchester Model 70's are collectors items. To my knowledge there were less than 2000 NM Model 70's made, making it amongst the rarest of standard production variants.
Like it or not,in this case value is most likely to be determined by comparing it to an original new in the box example, which could fetch upwards of $3000+ on a good day to the right person.
The sights may or may not be worth big money, all depends on maker, model and condition. The rifles themselves, with all the mods, have no collector value left.

Replying to no one in particular:
Again, I appreciate all the help. It feels like everyone replying has a number in their head but no one has actually said a number, haha.
(I don’t mean that to sound ungrateful...just an observation.)
Perhaps I’ll be able to share more details when they’re in my hands.

Vintage Hunter, we're both right. It depends on your point of view. To me it is a tool to use in competition, to others it is a collectable item in its own right to add joy to a collection. I'm always glad there is space for all of us who love guns.

That M70 Target rifle may have a Dunlap style stock but it is not an original Dunlap rifle. I knew and shot with Roy on occasion. I have seen many of his rifles on the firing line though I could never afford one. I doubt very much if a Winchester collector would have much interest in a highly modified target rifle. The stock is not a Winchester original and the rifle has, in my opinion been re-blued. At one time, the Winchester M70 rifle ruled the high power ranges but in recent years, I believe that it has fallen in to disuse. I have not fired in a high power match in ten year so cannot verify this. The value of that rifle is dependent upon its accuracy and what it is to be used for, The rear sight appears to be a MO'S precision rear sight and the front sight is sight containing a bubble level for long range precision shooting. I cannot think of the manufacturers name at the moment. If the rifle retains its accuracy, it is probably OK for big bore rifle matches but may not be competitive. If it maintains it accuracy it is well worth $425. To the high power shooter-handsome is as handsome does. A rifle is a tool of the trade for him/her.
I agree with vintage hunter. The M70 NM rifle is a rare bird indeed. In over 50 years I have only seen one.
There were three versions of the M70 target rifles:
1. The M 70 NM (Essentially a M70 sporter in a Winchester target stock to meet NRA rules). Always in 30-06 caliber
2. The M70 Target (the same as the NM with a medium heavy weight barrel -probably the most numerous)
3. Them M70 Bull Gun (same as the Target except with a very heavy barrel and in 300 H&H & 30-06 calibers). I have one of these in 300 H&H
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
FWIW

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Vintage Hunter, we're both right. It depends on your point of view. To me it is a tool to use in competition, to others it is a collectable item in its own right to add joy to a collection. I'm always glad there is space for all of us who love guns.

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Daan, I agree with you're practical views 100% and apologise if I came across as being argumentative. I took the collectors approach to value assessment in the attempt to convince the owner that he was in for a big letdown if he continued seeing the dollar signs he reported in post 3.

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

he was in for a big letdown if he continued seeing the dollar signs he reported in post 3.

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I still don’t know what to think! Haha

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Originally Posted by rcathey

I still don’t know what to think! Haha

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As Master Po used to say " have patience young grasshopper". If the initial investment doesn't cause you financial difficulties just just tuck them away for awhile and see what happen on the collectors market. Who knows, in the next few years interest in old school "custom" target rifles could skyrocket. Collectors are strange birds. For as far back as I can remember coins that had a hole drilled had no value and where snubbed by collectors but now, as I understand it, as long as they show good detail some coin collectors are starting to show interest and depending on rarity pay a small premium above melt value. Who knows what the next collectors fad will be. I know what it won't be though, and that's anything I have one of.😁

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

If the initial investment doesn't cause you financial difficulties just just tuck them away...in the next few years....

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It’s Visa’s money, not mine ;).
I won’t be waiting years though, I’m afraid. I’ll just wing it if nothing definitive comes out of the woodwork. An auction starting at about $800 is sounding good to me.

From my own point of view as a parts dealer at gun shows every weekend. What I see alone in sights you can recoup you investment. The bolt alone can bring 150.00 up. trigger group 80.00 up. Stock 100.00 up. It is a long hard sell to move the parts. Longer than selling the rifle at 2 to 3 times possibly more than what you go into it. With parts it is a one time sell to that person who needs that 1 part. Then you may not sell again for a year. Place the guns on the auction side with lots of good pictures set your starting price an let the gun gods go.

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Originally Posted by mmppres

...selling the rifle at 2 to 3 times possibly more than what you go into it.

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That’s spot on in line with what I got from the Winchester forum. One guy there suggests it’s worth perhaps $1k.
I’m thinking I’ll start an auction at $800 or $900 and see what happens. I’ll base what I do on the second one on how the first does.

If they sell at $900, after fees I will have almost exactly doubled my money. That’s hard to be upset about!

Update:
No movement on these even at $500. That was a bad purchase, haha. Oh well.

It takes a special person to buy then give it time.