When is an Enfield not an Enfield?

At first glance this looks like any other mid fifties built No4 Mk2 until you look at the markings. The rifle came from a dealer in Jersey (for our friends across the pond that is a small island that is part of the channel island group just north west of France).
The barrel and action carry sold out of service marks and a lot of the other parts exhibit various date letters and marks. All of the major parts have been serial numbered to the rifle along with the "C" inside a circle, the serial number N1659 would seem to indicate that a batch of these rifles were made but by whom??? At first I thought of Charnwood Ordinance but as far as I know all of their production started with a C-O-xxxxx serial number. The rifle has been very well assembled and correctly stocked up so does anyone know who built it???

A Fazakerley barrel
Serial number suggests BSA
London Civilian Proof Marks
"C in a Circle" - Canadian Ownership.

Interesting beast, Faz 1956 barrel, must have been one of the very last Faz barrels manufactured.

So a Faz No4 mk2 in Canadian service, that's interesting in itself, trials of some sort perhaps, as Canada never adopted the Mk2.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

"C in a Circle" - Canadian Ownership

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That's another thought that I had but a well know Canadian forum user assures me that no such beast exists.

We always had the Canadian mark as an arrow within a C. Personally, and I could be wrong, but I think it's someone with a Fazakerley Mk2, a set of stamps, a hammer and..............

I have seen it recently but the meaning has not 'stuck with me'.

I think it was something along the line of C in a circle was Canadian Arsenals and was used on 7.62 Conversions.

Are sold out of service stamps common on No.4 Mk2's?
I'm not sure I've seen one on a Mk2 receiver before.

We used to see hundreds of captured Canadian lend lease stuff in 'bond' at Vung Tau on its way for destruction or shipment elsewhere - to Australia, the UK or Malaya etc and the Arrow-in-a-C was the identification logo.

Peter is right about the Canadian property mark.....A broadarrow in a C. The broadarrow (British) dates back to somewhere in the 1300s and denotes King's stores. Canada started using a Canadianized form in the late 1800s by putting a C around the broadarrow, thus denoting Canadian government property. After WW2, the RCMP complained that there was so much surplus on the market with the C/l\ that they could not tell what was sold and what was stolen. By 1949 the C/l\ was officially dropped, although you will still find it stamped on kit much later (likely due to manufacturers following DND manufacturer drawings). As well, armourers seemed to continue to electro-pencil it onto small arms parts. Post 1949, there is a styalized arrow that inspection services used, but it was more of an inspection mark than a property mark.

There was also the C in an oval on some Enfield rifles that were thought to be used by shooting clubs or at Connought. It is thought the C in the oval denoted "competition", and usually would also have a 5G or a 6G on the wrist, likely denoting 5 groove or 6 groove rifling.

As to your C in a circle, I have seen a lot of Canadian weapons, and have never seen that mark on one.

Canada did end up with a bunch of no4mk2 rifles as part of the Ranger program. LB rifles were becoming short in supply, so the Canadian government went onto the world market to purchase more Enfields, and ended up with no4mk2 rifles around the 1999 timeline. No specific support was ever listed for the variations of that type rifle. All the no4 Enfields are now being pulled from Cdn military service as we speak. Any parts that are not common to the Cno7 rifle have been listed as being for disposal.

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Originally Posted by stencollector

Peter is right about the Canadian property mark.....A broadarrow in a C. The broadarrow (British) dates back to somewhere in the 1300s and denotes King's stores. Canada started using a Canadianized form in the late 1800s by putting a C around the broadarrow, thus denoting Canadian government property. After WW2, the RCMP complained that there was so much surplus on the market with the C/l\ that they could not tell what was sold and what was stolen. By 1949 the C/l\ was officially dropped, although you will still find it stamped on kit much later (likely due to manufacturers following DND manufacturer drawings). As well, armourers seemed to continue to electro-pencil it onto small arms parts. Post 1949, there is a styalized arrow that inspection services used, but it was more of an inspection mark than a property mark.

There was also the C in an oval on some Enfield rifles that were thought to be used by shooting clubs or at Connought. It is thought the C in the oval denoted "competition", and usually would also have a 5G or a 6G on the wrist, likely denoting 5 groove or 6 groove rifling.

As to your C in a circle, I have seen a lot of Canadian weapons, and have never seen that mark on one.

Canada did end up with a bunch of no4mk2 rifles as part of the Ranger program. LB rifles were becoming short in supply, so the Canadian government went onto the world market to purchase more Enfields, and ended up with no4mk2 rifles around the 1999 timeline. No specific support was ever listed for the variations of that type rifle. All the no4 Enfields are now being pulled from Cdn military service as we speak. Any parts that are not common to the Cno7 rifle have been listed as being for disposal.

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I believe some have identified that as a stylized maple leaf actually, though it looks more like a combination of the two - which could well have been the idea - after all it was the with the C Broad Arrow.

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Originally Posted by stencollector

Peter is right about the Canadian property mark.....A broadarrow in a C. The broadarrow (British) dates back to somewhere in the 1300s and denotes King's stores. Canada started using a Canadianized form in the late 1800s by putting a C around the broadarrow, thus denoting Canadian government property. After WW2, the RCMP complained that there was so much surplus on the market with the C/l\ that they could not tell what was sold and what was stolen. By 1949 the C/l\ was officially dropped, although you will still find it stamped on kit much later (likely due to manufacturers following DND manufacturer drawings). As well, armourers seemed to continue to electro-pencil it onto small arms parts. Post 1949, there is a styalized arrow that inspection services used, but it was more of an inspection mark than a property mark.

There was also the C in an oval on some Enfield rifles that were thought to be used by shooting clubs or at Connought. It is thought the C in the oval denoted "competition", and usually would also have a 5G or a 6G on the wrist, likely denoting 5 groove or 6 groove rifling.

As to your C in a circle, I have seen a lot of Canadian weapons, and have never seen that mark on one.

Canada did end up with a bunch of no4mk2 rifles as part of the Ranger program. LB rifles were becoming short in supply, so the Canadian government went onto the world market to purchase more Enfields, and ended up with no4mk2 rifles around the 1999 timeline. No specific support was ever listed for the variations of that type rifle. All the no4 Enfields are now being pulled from Cdn military service as we speak. Any parts that are not common to the Cno7 rifle have been listed as being for disposal.

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And CNo7 rifles are being deactivated for use by Cadets as drill rifles.

Deactivating No7 rifles is terrible...

Why don't they just sell them off for profit and procure the rubber/ plastic training M16 shape rifles for Cadet drill purposes.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Deactivating No7 rifles is terrible...

Why don't they just sell them off for profit and procure the rubber/ plastic training M16 shape rifles for Cadet drill purposes.

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That would make so much sense. The cadet program could certainly use the support.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

I believe some have identified that as a stylized maple leaf actually, though it looks more like a combination of the two - which could well have been the idea - after all it was the with the C Broad Arrow.

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My money says it is a broadarrow. It appeared almost 15 years before the styalized maple leaf that is on our present flag. They were still using maple leaf logos that looked like real maple leafs thru the 50s.
It would be interesting if someone was able to go to archives Canada and find something definitive on what it represents.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Deactivating No7 rifles is terrible...

Why don't they just sell them off for profit and procure the rubber/ plastic training M16 shape rifles for Cadet drill purposes.

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They took away anything that looked like an assault rifle form the cadets back in the 90s. There was a .22 caliber version of the C7 (Canada's version of the M16) rifle manufactured or proposed to be manufactured for the cadets in the late 80s, early 90s. With the anti-gun climate, they did not make it to the units.

Yes, it is a bit of a crime that these beautiful rifles (the Cno7) were converted to drill purpose. It will keep the ones that are out there high in value since there can be no release of serviceable rifles ever. No doubt the present Liberal government would quote UN arms reduction as a reason why 75 year old 22 rifles have to be destroyed. There is talk of some of the no4 Enfields presently in the Ranger program being sold or gifted to their users if they have appropriate license. However, the DND museum I am with made a request for some no4 rifles, and are only being given deactivated examples.

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Originally Posted by stencollector

There was a .22 caliber version of the C7 (Canada's version of the M16) rifle manufactured or proposed to be manufactured for the cadets in the late 80s, early 90s. With the anti-gun climate, they did not make it to the units.

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Addendum for those of us that remember it, this was the C10 training rifle...that never saw light of day. Too bad too...

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Originally Posted by stencollector

It will keep the ones that are out there high in value since there can be no release of serviceable rifles ever.

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Unfortunately, I also believe this to be struck in stone. Never will these be sold or released. Cut to bits instead...

"..."C in a Circle" - Canadian Ownership..." Nope. The Broad Arrow in a 'C' means Canadian. A "C in a Circle" means nothing. The 'Sold out of Service arrows are Brit. As is the single broad arrow on the butt socket.
I suspect that rifle was cobbled together out of parts. Possibly by the company who had the BNP proofing done.
"...Charnwood Ordinance..." That'd be Charnwood Ordnance. An Ordinance is a U.S. law.

….and maybe the C in a circle stands for Charnwood Ordnance.

The C No.7 is still very much in service with the Canadian Cadet Organisation. Cadets corps and squadrons active with a biathlon program can hold rifles in local stores.

Attachment 101234

The fleet of wartime produced rifles is ageing and they are relegated to DP when they no longer meet gauging standards or the bolt rail gets chipped (can be sharp and cut cadet fingers).

I have been told by a reliable source that there are still a few thousand unissued ones in DND stores.

Not sure but has the safety catch lever got M/47C stamped on it.