Colt m1911 Russian Contract ?

Hi all !
I am totally newbie here. This forum seemed to be a right place for my mystery 1911. This 1911 is in its original condition and guaranteed last time fired 1945. Since then nothing has been done to it. Not even cleaned. It seems to work nicely but I would like to clean it. Do I dare ?

I already did some research from the internet and found out some infos.
It seems to be Russian Contract Colt 1911 mfg 1916.
Could someone help me out with these markings ?
I would really appreciate especially if some knows what these U & S means and the number 6 or 9 below the bullet chamber ?

I already sent the inquiry to Colt, but..... 90 days response time ?!?

I had the chance to buy one of these not long ago. From my research at the time I figure it's about a $10,000 gun.
I saw one other while researching that did have the letter from Colt. It's serial was a few thousand away from yours and it was listed as shipped to the Russian government.

By the way, I can see what looks like active rust. Nice, original, rare...it still needs cleaned and oiled periodically.

10k ? Really ? Wow... This piece has been hidden for 74 years in a box under the floor boards in a barn. It was inside a wool insulated leather glove. Old letters and other stuff in the same box revealed that it was placed there 1945. Yes, there are some small rust points and those needs to be taken care of... I just don't know how so that I dont do anything stupid and ruin this piece of history... Either way it has survived in amazingly good condition for over seven decades ?!?

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Originally Posted by SilverVeteran

10k ? Really ? Wow...

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Yup. I think the real trick for you, being in Europe, will be finding the buyer.
In the states, I think it would sell pretty quick at 10k.

What do you think about the number 1 in the serial ? To me it looks a bit weird ? It does not look like number 1, to me it looks like straight line ?

I don't think it's anything to worry about.

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Originally Posted by SilverVeteran

What do you think about the number 1 in the serial ?

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I think that number looks good. Just a sharp die at that point.

The historical value of the find is going to be far less than the real value of the gun. Historical value will be for the family it belonged to or the reason for it being hidden, etc.

It might be worth your while to contact dealers who will ship it to the USA for the best price. I suspect that there are challenges where you are to dispose of the gun?

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

The historical value of the find is going to be far less than the real value of the gun. Historical value will be for the family it belonged to or the reason for it being hidden, etc.

It might be worth your while to contact dealers who will ship it to the USA for the best price. I suspect that there are challenges where you are to dispose of the gun?

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You definitely got that right ! Historic value is massive. This gun belonged to my wife´s grandfather. There is no documentation between the period 1916-1940, but on 4th july 1940 grandfather bought (there is a receipt, sale price was 100mk = 20$) this gun from the Finnish White Guards. 1945, after Finland lost war against Russia, it was hidden under the floor boards and remained there for 7 decades.

Since the gun has verified history all the way to 1940 (and also the period 1916-1940 is quite easily figured out) it was not too bad to get legal permit to hold on to it. Firing is prohibited though...

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Originally Posted by SilverVeteran

Firing is prohibited though...

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Why is that? We have a "Collector only" status here and it's not accompanied by any range privileges, same there?

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Why is that? We have a "Collector only" status here and it's not accompanied by any range privileges, same there?

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Totally different. We have very strict firearm laws here. 1911 is way too powerful to get range privileges... You need to have minimum 2 years active range shooting experience before you are able to apply a permit for .22 pistol :)

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Why is that? We have a "Collector only" status here and it's not accompanied by any range privileges, same there?

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and to get a Collector permit is not a walk in the park. It is quite difficult to get that status.

I don't want one here, I want to be able to shoot my stuff.

Any idea what would be the correct holster for this ? I doubt it would be M1916 model ? Tokarev TT-33 is 20 years younger so not that either...

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Originally Posted by SilverVeteran

the correct holster

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I found one on Simpson's and it resembles their other holsters but looks to have been specially made. That wouldn't surprise me. The pistol accompanying is not so far from your number...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I found one on Simpson's and it resembles their other holsters but looks to have been specially made. That wouldn't surprise me. The pistol accompanying is not so far from your number...

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Intresting !
This holster looks awfully lot like Tokarev TT33 holsters. Too bad the 1911 blocks the view whether it has the Tokarev extra magazine pocket.

Thing is it's huge by comparison to a TT33 holster, I think they made their own.

In reality the contract was not a Russian contract. It was one commissioned by the British. That is why the left side of the frame is marked in Cyrillic English Order. there were 51,000 made under this English contract. Then the Russians ordered another 15,000 directly from Colt. These are not marked in Cyrillic. Both contracts were in the commercial serial number range. The serial numbers were used at random.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Thing is it's huge by comparison to a TT33 holster, I think they made their own.

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After intense searching I found this holster. It is Norwegian Kongsberg Colt 1914 holster. I doubt this is what the Russians actually used during WW1 ? But who knows for sure ?

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Originally Posted by SilverVeteran

Norwegian Kongsberg Colt 1914 holster.

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Good...doubt the Russians used it either.

Cool gun site shows a 1916,
Reading the info..... Is this one from the batch linked below ?

Go to:
http://www.coolgunsite.com/

Then click on 1911 Gallery, scroll down to Gov model 1916 C59xxx

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Originally Posted by painter777

Cool gun site shows a 1916,
Reading the info..... Is this one from the batch linked below ?

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Nice find ! I don't know if this is from the same batch since my m1911 serial is 7000 lower. Everything else matches though. Still this number 1 in my M1911 serial puzzles me... it is much bigger than the number 1 in this linked m1911 serial ?
If I understand correctly this link says these m1911 were shipped without holsters ?

Like BAR said.... That number 1 was more than likely a nice new 1 die stamp.
I've seen pictures of Colt .45's and S&W Revolvers being handed out in old pictures with them in the box. That way the instructions, cleaning rod etc were all together.

Your serial number (IIRC) falls with in the batch sent over seas per that link.

SilverVeteren's pistol is one of the 51,000 made under the British order as it is marked on the left side of the frame English Order in Cyrillic. Now the one Charlie found is not from the same contract. IF it is a Russian gun then it's from the second contract made directly with the Russian government. BUT the problem is the serial numbers were all used at random for the second 15,000 in the second contract and they look like a standard Colt commercial pistol. A letter to Colt may be able to say yes or no to it being a Russian contract. The letters are not cheap but can be worth it. There are fakes out there as it is an uncommon and can be a valuable pistol to find especially in the second contract.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

A letter to Colt may be able to say yes or no to it being a Russian contract. The letters are not cheap but can be worth it. There are fakes out there as it is an uncommon and can be a valuable pistol to find especially in the second contract.

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I have already reguested a verification letter from Colt. Response time is ”may take 90 days” so have to wait a while. I already got couple of emails from Colt where they asked photos and some interesting details about the history of this gun between 1917-1944. I guess it is not common that the pistol has documented history available.

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Originally Posted by SilverVeteran

I already got couple of emails from Colt where they asked photos and some interesting details about the history of this gun between 1917-1944. I guess it is not common that the pistol has documented history available.

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Those will be interesting to see when it all comes in...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Those will be interesting to see when it all comes in...

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Very much so.

SilverVeteran, please do post once it arrives.

Hi all,
Last weekend we discovered more awesome things from the same place. Holster and a bayonet !!! Bayonet (mfg 1928-1930) is pretty basic m28 Finnish White Guard bayonet with =S= stamp indicating it belonged to the Suojeluskunta (White Guard). Nice find but.... the holster... it indeed seems to be for the Russian Colt m1911 :eek:. All the wear marks match with the pistol.
This holster is pretty similar to the original Colt M1916 holster, but much more simpler made. There are no stamps or markings of anykind, but the m1911 fits PERFECTLY in it and in the interior leather there are clear wear marks of pistols rear sight, grip safety and trigger guard.

What do you guys think ? Could this really be the holster Russians used with Colt m1911 or is this Finnish made after the pistol was captured in 1918 ?

Holster could have been made by anyone...

The hangers on the back of the holster. Made to attach the holster to a webbed belt. Was this a standard on other Finnish holsters or not? I ask as I do not remember seeing this on other Russian holsters.

Looks like the standard M1910 belt hangers that's been slid into the loop without sewing in place.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

The hangers on the back of the holster. Made to attach the holster to a webbed belt. Was this a standard on other Finnish holsters or not? I ask as I do not remember seeing this on other Russian holsters.

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Definetely not a standard on Finnish holsters. Finnish army and the Civil Guard both used leather belts. I have never seen a holster with a hanger used in Finland. Also when I asked this and sent photos to finnish war museum they were equally amazed. Well earlier they were also amazed I have found Russian contract Colt :) Cant say anything sure about russian holsters, but quick according to quick search from the internet it seems not to be standard in russians holsters either.

It does look like an American holster that was modified. It appears the back of the holster has been cut back and then stitched?

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

It does look like an American holster that was modified. It appears the back of the holster has been cut back and then stitched?

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That's a piece of latigo that has been folded over and sewn, it was never a US issue holster...no way...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

That's a piece of latigo that has been folded over and sewn, it was never a US issue holster...no way...

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I am so interested of this holster I took it to an expert.
According to finnish war museum curators first thoughts:
- leather seems to be too fine quality to have been made in Finland during those days
- this kind of flap fastener was not used in Finland or this would be the first ever he has seen
- sewing is most likely made with machine, because of the thick leather and even stitching
- this Colt has definetely spent lots of time in this holster since both the holster and the colt have matching wear marks

So most likely this holster is not finnish made and that would mean it has been made before spring 1918. I left the holster to museum and they will try to trace the origin.
This really did not make my interest any easier :D

Yes, of course it's machine sewn. That would just be a shoe maker or Saddler or anyone with a heavy machine... I have those kind of fasteners in my possession, salvaged from ruined US issue. It could be pre 1918 but doesn't have to be. Could just be forty or fifty years old. That's still a long time. If you carried that pistol in that holster for a couple months of field time, the effect would be what you see. It hasn't spent any extended time in the weather and field though. Take a look at any issue holster that was out there, you'll see a much more extensive shaping to the pistol. I don't think you'll ever pin down exactly who or where on this one. How could you...? But for range work or just carry it would suffice well...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

It could be pre 1918 but doesn't have to be. Could just be forty or fifty years old. That's still a long time. If you carried that pistol in that holster for a couple months of field time, the effect would be what you see. It hasn't spent any extended time in the weather and field though. Take a look at any issue holster that was out there, you'll see a much more extensive shaping to the pistol.

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Hi Browning,
I dont mean to underestimate your expertise, but in this case you might got it wrong.
Since this Colt was hid in 1945 (there were letter which proves it) and the previous owner passed away 1949 it indicates holster is minimum 74 years old. Then there is a receipt indicating this Colt, one magazine, rounds and a holster was bought from the White Guards in july 1940 indicates holster is minimum 79 years old. According to the museum curator it is most likely made somewhere else than in Finland dates it back to spring 1918 when it was captured from the red army officer. This would make it minimum 101 year old.
Colt was army captains sidearm 1940-1945 which could explain why the holster is in rather good condition. I guess the Colt was not in very heavy use because there was still 4 rounds (rounds which dates back to 1930’) in the magazine when I found this.
Of course there is a chance someone found the gun later, made a holster and used the gun with it and later put the gun back under the floor boards and tossed the holster to a wooden crate in a same barn.... possible, but highly unlikely :D
Maybe they will find out something more in the museum when they make their own inspections.
And like I said I dont mean to underestimate your opinion, these traces just indicate something else.

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Originally Posted by SilverVeteran

Colt was army captains sidearm 1940-1945 which could explain why the holster is in rather good condition.

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You see that I could believe. Don't misunderstand me, I'm just saying it's home made and not likely saw much use. Not hard use, just carrying. It's just all this trying to reach far back 100 years...I just said it COULD be only... No, it wouldn't have come out and then returned in a holster. Bet the officer had it made himself.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Bet the officer had it made himself.

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Yes, I dont believe this is industrial made either. Or if it is, then it is a really bad one :) The big question is which of these officers had it made, the red army officer or the finnish army officer ? As you may have noticed I am really keen to find out the origin... will I ? I really hope so.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

Yup. I think the real trick for you, being in Europe, will be finding the buyer.
In the states, I think it would sell pretty quick at 10k.

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You're right, here in Italy for instance the market is completely stuck. If you buy something nice (and expensive) you'll never be able to sell it, unless you give it away for half the price. It's really upsetting.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Holster could have been made by anyone...

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Jim, I agree judging from the rough leather cuts and stitching, it look like someone took a commerical Model of 1912 holster and modified it. You can see on the back of the holster where the brass swivel was at one point. Interesting gun.

I finally got info from the war museum curator.
According to him, this holster is made of two separate Colt 1903 / FN Browning model 1903 holsters.
Since the russian contract Colt m1911's were shipped to russia without holsters they had to improvise. Some russian officers used Nagant 1985 holsters which were rather poor fit and some had these modified holsters.
They already had in the museum couple almost identical "Russian style modified" Colt M1911 holsters. Russian started to make these modifications in 1916 and later also Finns copied it when they captured these 1911s with Nagant holsters.
Curator could not say for sure whether my holster is Russian made dating back to 1916-17 or if it was Finnish made after the capture.

I am attempting to fill in the historical blanks for my Grandfather's Colt 1911. I submitted pics and serial number to Colt and received confirmation that is was manufactured in 1912 and was part of a 1,200 piece lot sent to the Army's arsenal in San Antonio, Tx. My Grandfather was a coal mining superintendent in Wilder, TN and a coal mine inspector. He was known to carry the 1911 with him most of the time. He was not in the military and never traveled to Texas. Does anyone have any ideas on tracking the history of this gun from San Antonio, TX to a coal mine in Tenn.

Thanks for any ideas or thoughts on this matter.

After WW1 ended, many men brought home their 1911 pistols. When discharged they went home and this one may have gone that route to Tennessee when you grandfather picked it up one way or another. Many ways it could have been acquired.

Finally !!!
It only took exact 4 months to receive this Colt letter.
But now it has been verified.