How to Fix No4 MkII mistake

I sold my No4 MkII that I took out of the wrap but never removed the grease to a younger collector and it seems he used Acetone to remove the grease. The results are not good. Question is what was the original finish and how to get it back close to it. It's a 1954 and shouldn't have a blonde stock but now it has no finish stock. He is a good kid that made a mistake. .

Before still covered in grease

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5f6ffe41-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8c0e4408-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cbb6467f-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...dc3bc11b-1.jpg

After Acetone Cleaning

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cf926193-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ed9cb33d-1.jpg

Looks like the stain has gone. If it's beech handguards then it's hard to stain. You need to thin the stain to make it go in. Front looks like it has the fish scale of beech...

I think it is Beech at least the forestock is. Not sure what other woods were used. What was the original finish, because there is none left. Said he used Acetone and after everything was removed wiped a coat of regular Linseed Oil not boiled but it doesn't look like that did much. Now I wish I removed the grease from it. That butt stock would have looked beautiful with the dark finish.

The good news: It's fixable.

Over here in Mauserland I would get a bottle of Scherell's gunstock oil.
I have no connection with the shop linked below, the link is just exemplary - to save me the bother of writing out a lot of description.
The English form of writing with an 's makes me think that there ought to be a source in the UK or US.

Schaftl Schaftol hell

Scherell's is a very fine linseed-oil based product. Finer than Tru-Oil. And it comes in various degree of stain.

I HAVE been there, and I HAVE done that, so if you want to recover something like the original finish, please follow these instructions.

Get hold of some Scherell's gunstock oil in the darkest shade available (very dark). Or, of course, an equivalent product. Maybe Brownells has something similar?
Get a small bottle of NATURAL TERPENTINE.

Yes, I am shouting, deliberately. DO NOT USE ANYTHING ELSE EXCEPT NATURAL TERPENTINE. No paint thinner, oven cleaner or any of the other dubious substances that you may have seen recommended elsewhere!

You also need some pieces of old linen or cotton rags, kitchen towelling - and an open window!

And do NOT smoke or have any fire source in the vicinity!

1) Open the window!

2) Cover the surface you are going to work on with a double-layer of paper kitchen towelling. Because of the possibility of staining, wear old clothes.

3) Rub down the stock with a rag well-wetted in natural turpentine. All over - not just outside, but also inside, in the barrel channel, receiver cut-out etc.
In other words, get as near as you reasonably can to dunking the whole stock in turpentine.

The turpentine will thin out the linseed oil that was already applied, and the soaking of ALL surfaces helps the gunstock oil to penatrate into the pores of the wood.

4) When the stock wood has taken up the turpentine - visible as a darker shading of the wood - start to apply the Scherell's with another rag. You must do this before the turpentine dries out. So, if, while you are working, some areas go dry (the wood becomes lighter in color) simply rub on a bit more turpentine before continuing with the Scherell's.

Start with an inconspicuous surface, such as the barrel channel, so that you can gauge whether the staining will be dark enough - or even too dark. The gunstock oil must be applied almost dropwise on the rag - NOT poured onto the wood, which would produce a patch of excessive staining.

Try to work lightly and evenly, not patchily.

5) When you have worked over the entire surface, wipe off any excess oil with a dry rag. There must be no drips or accumulations of oil in the corners.

6) Now comes the hard part ... leave it alone until the next day!

7) Next day, the wood will have dried out to be somewhat lighter than when it was wetted with turpentine. Apply another oiling, again working lightly and evenly, spending more time where the wood seems lighter, and less time wherer it is darker. During this second application you will find that very little oil goes a very long way.

8) If you have the necessary self-control, leave it for a week (OK, at least a few days!).

9) This time, do not apply any oil, just rub down all over with a clean, dry rag. The surface should now be developing a definite sheen.

Repeat steps 7-9 until you are satisfied that the stock has achieved a good coloring and a smooth, almost glossy surface.

If you wish, you can achieve a glossier surface faster by using Tru-Oil, but as soon as you do so, you will not be able to deepen the staining any more. By comparison with Scherell's, Tru-oil has a sealing effect.


It works, try it!

Is this Scherell's the equivalent to the original finish or will it make it look like the original finish? Or Did the Brits actually dip their stocks in boiling boiled linseed oil like people claim Germans and Finns did?

Thank you very much for the detailed instructions.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

The butt looks like Walnut to me from here...

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If they used Walnut I would say it definitely is Walnut. It has that blue hue now that it is stripped, and that beautiful grain came through so nicely before it was stripped.

It was common enough to have both woods involved but stained to match. The stain is now a mystery, with Peter Laidler and a couple others here that might know. I just know I can't match the colors...

I found an interesting link that confirms what I always believed. That most of the products sold are not the oils they claim to be but are instead a mix of chemicals.

Scherell's Schaftol - RimfireCentral.com Forums

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Originally Posted by capt14k

Is this Scherell's the equivalent to the original finish or will it make it look like the original finish?

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It seems to be highly refined linseed oil + a staining agent (I don't have the recipe). Look on the Lee Enfield forum, and you will find plenty of info on the original linseed oil based treatment. If I remember correctly, this involved dunking the stocks in baths of hot linseed oil - not something that is practival for the home user.

It will do the job. IMHO it is both equivalent to (i.e. has the same effect) and will look like the original finish. I would guess that something similar is available from companies like Brownells.

BTW, the color on originals varies greatly, from blond beech to dark walnut, so don't start thinking in terms of color charts and Pantone numbers!

And don't forget, once you have put on the basic layer, go very, very gently with the oil. It is tempting to cut short the waiting time between applications, but too much oil + too fast = a sticky mess. Linseed oil basically hardens off by exposure to air, so it takes time.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

highly refined linseed oil + a staining agent

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That's the part that I can't match...like the old time furniture stains.

I've had a few hundred of the nos No.4Mk.2 rifles but have never peeled and cleaned one. I have cleaned up a few messes like that with ease. The last being an M1 rifle that had boiled linseed glopped all over it including on the metal. What a sticky mess it was! Here's how to fix it quickly and easily. Remove the wood, wash it in Dollar Store, grocery store grade clear ammonia. Wipe it off gently with a Scotchbrite/spongy pad, clean the nooks and crannies with a soft bristle toothbrush. There won't be any elbow grease needed. You'll see the mess come off almost immediately. Then rinse the wood pieces with cool water, pat dry or blow off with a compressor and set them in the sun to dry. That would take about 20 minutes here in South Carolina right now. There's no need for stain but stain if you want using an alcohol based stain. Chestnut Ridge is good if you like a reddish military tint. That being said with your rifle, I would forget the stain and just soak the freshly cleaned wood with raw linseed oil on a sponge brush. I like to warm the wood up in the sun, (the linseed tanks that were used originally were just warmed, not hot), and carefully rub it out with fine steel wool and then just by hand, mopping off excess with a blue paper shop towel. Just keep applying coats of raw linseed until it won't take any more or you're happy with the finish. You'll be amazed how fast it takes on a sheen as original if you do it this way. Three or four coats will do it. Taught to me by a real craftsman who specialized in restoring antique firearms and building Pennsylvania and other black powder rifles from scratch. The ammonia cleans the oil and grime off almost immediately, doesn't harm or discolor anything and once rinsed and dried, leaves a perfect base to start over with the finishing process. Remember to wear gloves and work outdoors with good ventilation.

Definately beech or birch I would say and I think that a lot of these last Mk2's came out with VERY pale natural wood. Obviously hot linseed dipped of course but I say that it probably came as a very pale wood. Why it was dark when it was unwrapped, then I say that's because the protective grease coating, protected by the original greaseproof wrapping had stained the wood. Just my opinion of course. The way to tell is to take a handguard off and see what colour the wood is underneath. Because if it WAS stained at Fazakerley when new, inside it'll STILL be stained.

I'm with Peter on this one. I don't think I've ever seen a No.4Mk.2 that was nos and out of the wrap with what looked like stained wood. Just clean it and reoil it. The patina will come back after rubbing it out with several coats and you won't even be able to tell.

I'll venture a wild *** guess, (WAG), as to what the original powdered stain was that the REME Armourers mixed into the hot linseed oil tank. Ground Alkinet root. High grade British gunmakers have been using it for centuries to stain wood. I actually acquired some of the actual root which I'll mix into a small container of raw linseed oil to see how it works.

He says he is going to follow directions given here to prep the stock then boil in a vat of pure linseed oil. I will update when he does and post pics.

(the linseed tanks that were used originally were just warmed, not hot)Heed this advice I would not go sticking a stock in boiling linseed oil less you run the risk of warping the stock it may not happen but why take the risk you can get the same result like BD says with a bit of time and little effort we are not at war globally so a war time expedient does not have to be done..........his call but remember if it goes south you were advised on how to do it with modern techniques.

Brian is right. Our linseed tanks were pleasantly warm to hot when you put your hands into it. If you are bent on health and safety etc etc and didn't take kindly to the work practices in our big and small workshop facilities, the 60's and 70's Army wasn't the place for you. Linseed tanks, boiling trichlorethylene and carbon tetrachloride tanks were the norm. I did see a pair of rubberised gloves and a leather apron once and that was in the battery shop!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

If you are bent on health and safety etc etc and didn't take kindly to the work practices in our big and small workshop facilities, the 60's and 70's Army wasn't the place for you.

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Gas baths for weapons cleaning...at least they were outside. I still didn't want my hands in them much, just enough to do what you needed. The rubber gloves were part of the NBC gear and not for playing house with.

Luckily, yoiu, me and Muffer were all of the same serving era BAR so we're all on the same wavelength so to speak. Talking of which, ain't heard from Muffer for a while. Where are you Muffer?

I would use Liberian spirit based wood stain on that, red scotchbrite first, making sure it's clean and dry, then apply (I would suggest light oak colour) apply to desired finish, cut raw linseed oil 50% with turps, then follow on with neat linseed oil applications.

Buff with a cloth to semi Matt finish and it will very closely match the original finish.

Not dead yet Pete.

Good to hear from you again Muffer.

But back to the original thread. The trouble with 'home gunsmiths' using scotchbrite or even fine sandpaper etc etc is that they will insist in rounding off the corners and edges, by accident or design. It's one of these failings that there is no way back from. Sandpaper used a sanding block and follow it through. Other stuff, never go within an inch of the edges or corners

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Good to hear from you again Muffer.

But back to the original thread. The trouble with 'home gunsmiths' using scotchbrite or even fine sandpaper etc etc is that they will insist in rounding off the corners and edges, by accident or design. It's one of these failings that there is no way back from. Sandpaper used a sanding block and follow it through. Other stuff, never go within an inch of the edges or corners

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Afternoon Peter, the beauty of scotchbrite (red in this case) is that it its very gentle on wood and will only remove the general crud from the grain and not affect corners, edges markings etc.

Its one of those modern materials that work extremely well with most materials. I say that with 20 + years experience in refinishing.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

scotchbrite (red in this case)

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We only had green, originally for cleaning the stoves and pot/pan sets. SOMEHOW it migrated across to gas pistons and such...

I buy the Scotcbrite with sponge on one side and the green scrubby on the other. I like them best when very well used and am extremely careful when they are new. It takes very little pressure to clean off caked grimy spots, especially when cleaning with clear ammonia, ( I can only dream of a boiling trichlorethane tank Peter!). I've never damaged or scratched up any wood with them but don't really use them as sandpaper. It's apples and oranges. I try to avoid scraping and sanding if possible on collectable rifles but do it carefully when called for and always use a sanding block. I'd love to have a heated linseed tank for working in the winter but I simply don't need it here in summer when it's 100f in the sun out back. At around $55 a gallon with shipping, I can make it last a long, long time by applying it the TLC way.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I buy the Scotcbrite with sponge on one side and the green scrubby on the other. I like them best when very well used and am extremely careful when they are new. It takes very little pressure to clean off caked grimy spots, especially when cleaning with clear ammonia, ( I can only dream of a boiling trichlorethane tank Peter!). I've never damaged or scratched up any wood with them but don't really use them as sandpaper. It's apples and oranges. I try to avoid scraping and sanding if possible on collectable rifles but do it carefully when called for and always use a sanding block. I'd love to have a heated linseed tank for working in the winter but I simply don't need it here in summer when it's 100f in the sun out back. At around $55 a gallon with shipping, I can make it last a long, long time by applying it the TLC way.

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Absolutely Brian, it's a great 3M product.
It's available in grey (very fine) Red
(medium) and green (coarse) in the UK.

Using red with a spirit cleaner with a final rub over with grey and you can achieve a superb finish.

The red, when brand new and carefully applied, works particularly well for bluing preparation, especially if you are trying to replicate the dull luster blue of Russian firearms.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I buy the Scotcbrite with sponge on one side and the green scrubby on the other.

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Yes, I have those here...for various uses. Not really on firearms but I don't do much overhauling now days. I was shining up some arty brass recently though...

.....and we used to get a green pad 2"x1.5" in the ration packs, put straight to the gun cleaning roll for gas pistons, dixies we scrubbed with a hand full of sand....got to get your priorities right.:madsmile:

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

.and we used to get a green pad 2"x1.5" in the ration packs

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I had forgotten that. It had a spot of soap inside and was originally for cleaning the canteen cup. The hexamine tablets made the bottom sticky and would cover in crap so you couldn't get heat to it.

Yes, those Hexamine tablets. Didn't they just make a mess of your mess tins and cooking pots. Someone showed me how to use an old tea bag - and that seemed to work. I still keep a couple of still-wrapped hexi-cookers, ....just in case! Jim is right about the bottom of the dixie being covered in that tar-like stuff. You'd end up putting more hexi blocks onto the cooker just to get more heat to the ALMOST boiling water and it'd never quite make it to tea-making temperature. Anyone remember the small tubes of 'milk' that looked like a thick creamy car polish? We only seemed to see that on ops alonmg with self heating cans of soup or M&V - or meat and veg to the civvies out there!!!!! As for the soup, every tin I ever saw was labelled as SOUP, Brown, Windsor. Whatever was in it is a bit of a mystery. But add some curry powder to it - and everything else and it all tasted, er........, like a better tasting crap!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Someone showed me how to use an old tea bag

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Another thing I had forgotten. An Aussie advisor showed us that...

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

the small tubes of 'milk' that looked like a thick creamy car polish

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It was referred to as a "Dairy spread" and thick, oversweet.

What about the caramel bars or the chocolate that was meant to be dissolved in hot water? Eaten like a chocolate bar it tasted like dirt...out on patrol around Tin Can Bay...

That chocolate in our ration packs......., sorry to go off at a tangent again........ was said to be salt-free. So that it was just the sugar and cocoa part for energy but less the salt so that it wouldn't make you thirsty afterwards. Made by Cadbury and Jamiesons in Dundee or Glasgow (anyone????) on contract as 'lifeboat or aircraft' survival rations. Rowntree made some special bars of YORKIE chocolate for our packs with NOT FOR CIVVIES printed across the wrapper!!!!!

Yes, we appear to be drifting here...

Driftings good, old memories spark tired brains....and that keeps us healthy, not so much the ration packs though.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Another thing I had forgotten. An Aussie advisor showed us that...



It was referred to as a "Dairy spread" and thick, oversweet.

What about the caramel bars or the chocolate that was meant to be dissolved in hot water? Eaten like a chocolate bar it tasted like dirt...out on patrol around Tin Can Bay...

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I believe that was probably the unsweetened condensed milk.

Prior to joining the Army, I only ever drank black tea. Most farmers did where I came from. After needing the sugar kick form the brew that was taken where and when, I kinda became hooked on the white tea idea.

Sad, but true. As awful as much of the Rat Pack was, it somehow gets ingrained in you. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it... :madsmile:

A fair while ago, there was some discussion regarding "Scotchbrite" pads .

I'll reprise my version of the "caveat":

The REAL stuff is made by 3M, of "carborundum" and sticky-tape fame.

The reason the curly stuff in a Scotchbrite pad works so well on the cooking gear is that, embedded in the little nodules on the spun fibre, are particles of Silicon Carbide.

It will remove commercial blueing almost instantly, will cut into Parkerizing and leave clear scratches on hard-chromed bits like L1A1 gas plugs and pistons. It will certainly scrub hardened crud from woodwork, but use pads that no longer make the grade in the kitchen; you'll do a lot less mischief to wood and metal. Be careful with solvents, as well. The synthetic sponge backing on some may dissolve when doused in some of the more evil hydrocarbons out there. (Your lungs? Ditto!)

Bronze or stainless-steed wool are preferred for working with wood. Any fibres that end up embedded in open-grained timber will not corrode and leave an interesting reddish purple stain where the fibre is hiding.

The "REAL DEAL" on older stuff is Linseed oil, not some magic synthetic brew. Rifles in actual service were not "tarted up" like a Weatherby! Dull, dull. dull was the ideal finish on the two-way rifle range, for obvious reasons.

My experience with actual, Service, (RAAF Cadets), SMLES is not all encompassing, but the ones I shot and drilled with back in the early 1970's had dull and fading metal finish. The woodwork was almost BLACK, mainly from the grime from a million grubby paws drilling AND shooting, as well as literally "hand-rubbing" in the "oil, du jour", which was often, as I recall, OX52? or some-such, and occasionally, an "update" to the linseed.

My last "exciting" encounter with issue linseed oil was about a decade ago; I was doing "annual tech inspections" on a big batch of F88s (Oz AUGs) and one was impossible to "clear" before inspection. Some goose in the Q store had issued LINSEED oil to a Digger who merrily slathered it all over the metal bits of his "plastic fantastic" before reassembly, after which it was duly placed on a rack in a warm, humidity-controlled armoury, for several months. NOBODY picked up the distinctly different smell of the Linseed oil.

I ended up using "Carburetor and Throttle-body cleaner" to get that one apart.

So, final note: Make it a rule to keep "wood oils" away from the metal bits, and "gun-oil" off the nice woodwork. Unless you have a hankering for the "good-old days" of OX-52 or your local equivalent.

Minwax makes a wood conditioner that preps the wood prior to applying the stain. From what I remember it allows the stain to be applied evenly in the wood. Frank

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Some goose in the Q store had issued LINSEED oil to a Digger who merrily slathered it all over the metal bits of his "plastic fantastic" before reassembly, after which it was duly placed on a rack in a warm, humidity-controlled armoury, for several months.

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You aren't the only one, there was a clown issuing it as "Oil" to the troops at one point for rifle cleaning. Thought it was just another type of oil. That causes another comprehensive cleaning session immediately...

Ahem... there is ONE time that you use linseed oil on metal...!

This is when you are finishing damascus barrels using the old rust brown method.. Once you have been around the coat, damp and card off buoy a few times you dunk the barrel into a solution of logwood to darken the stain. After finally drying off the barrel, the traditional last finish is boiled linseed oil! This has the effect of filling the pores in the barrel and stopping any moisture getting in. It also smooths off the slightly rough finish and leave a nice shiny effect. It must be let alone to set for a week or so, and then can be oiled in the usual manner...!