No.5 Mk.1 11/44 Identification Question

Hello, I just found this forum researching a No.5 Mk.1 I recently acquired so I'm brand new to the community. I enjoy collecting military surplus firearms, but I'm not very knowledgeable in the area of Enfield's. This one caught my eye due to it being like a No.5 Mk.1 my father had stolen from him in the early 1970s and I had to pick it up. Would anyone be able to assist in identifying the proof marks to include the buttstock disc? I would really like to know the history of this one? Thanks, Tony

First time I've seen a butt disc on a #5...

A very nice and well-travelled No5 Mk 1. Fazakerly rifle manufactured in November of 1944. The little arrows are the "broad arrow" military ownership marks. The various others are simply proof and inspection stamps. The butt-disc is a first, as those were never applied to No 5's. That certainly did not happen in UK service. Perhaps it was added by some foreign government or even some time during its civilian life.

ROF (F)= Royal Ordnance Factory, Fazakerly. 11/44= November 1944, followed by serial number.

I would advise you purchase any of Ian Skennertons "enfield" books. He has lists of proof and inspection markings in the glossary. Skip Strattons' little paperbacks on enfield collecting list quit a few as well.

This is a thead that comes up often, re; markings. They are illustrated in the books mentioned above. To go through all the little would stamps would cause headaches and eye strain!

Oh, and welcome to the forum. You have now been infected with "enfielditis." There is an inverse relationship to the number of enfields one owns and the dwindling dollars in ones bank account.

We discussed some figures about these back in 2017 https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=59352

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

First time I've seen a butt disc on a #5...

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I agree! It’s definitely been there a while as well.

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Originally Posted by smle addict

A very nice and well-travelled No5 Mk 1. Fazakerly rifle manufactured in November of 1944. The little arrows are the "broad arrow" military ownership marks. The various others are simply proof and inspection stamps. The butt-disc is a first, as those were never applied to No 5's. That certainly did not happen in UK service. Perhaps it was added by some foreign government or even some time during its civilian life.

ROF (F)= Royal Ordnance Factory, Fazakerly. 11/44= November 1944, followed by serial number.

I would advise you purchase any of Ian Skennertons "enfield" books. He has lists of proof and inspection markings in the glossary. Skip Strattons' little paperbacks on enfield collecting list quit a few as well.

This is a thead that comes up often, re; markings. They are illustrated in the books mentioned above. To go through all the little would stamps would cause headaches and eye strain!

Oh, and welcome to the forum. You have now been infected with "enfielditis." There is an inverse relationship to the number of enfields one owns and the dwindling dollars in ones bank account.

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Thank you so much for the info and I’m definitely feeling the “Enfieldtis” lol! I’ll take a look for the book as well. The disc is such a mysterious addition without a doubt.

---------- Post added at 06:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

We discussed some figures about these back in 2017 https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=59352

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Appreciate the link to the thread, you all have been extremely welcoming for my first time here, thank you!

Butt might be a replacement.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Butt might be a replacement.

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Sure, maybe...are you thinking it was made from a #1 butt? Disc hole present so easiest way to fill it is with a disc...?

It would be a great deal of work to convert a No.1 butt just to preserve the disc hole - easier to drill the hole.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Butt might be a replacement.

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Some wise words from the man who knows (PL)
Wed 2 Jan 2008 9:52 am

Some of you will by now have noticed that there are TWO shapes inside top surface, inside the No4 rifle butt socket. The OLD ex SMLE shape with a rounded step on the right and a tapered step on the left and the post 1942 (?, but that’s what we called them …..) shape of two rounded steps.
Officially, and according to our EMER’s, you CAN fit a double rounded stepped butt to a single round/taper step body after adjusting the wood accordingly. But you CANNOT fit a single rounded/taper step butt to a double rounded butt socket. This is because, try as you might, you’ll never truly get it tight ….., or if you do, it won’t last!
That’s the OFFICIAL party line. But if you think that any old, wise and weary old Armourer Sergeant would allow you to wait until a stock of double rounded butts arrived, from stores in England to Korea or Aden or Malaya or wherever you were, you’re WRONG. It was quite common practice to simply dovetail, glue, patch, peg and make off the butts to get to the type you need. Simple isn’t it.

I have seen/handled one or two No.5s with the unit disc in the butt. No story to tell by the seller. Apparently the price must have too high as I didn't buy it or the disc was not a big deal at the time. Still I have no remorse.

Great looking rifle enjoy it

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

It would be a great deal of work to convert a No.1 butt

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I agree, couldn't see it. Still, never before seen the butt disc in a #5. Wonder who and why?

Nope, butt marking disc on a No5....., me neither and I have seen one or two No5's towards the end of the 60's in Malaya a lot of the new replacement woodwork was simply converted No4 woodwork. It was difficult to tell the fore-ends and handguards but you could see converted No4 butts bu the recessed patch covering the old lower sling swivel

Funnily enough Peter I bought a NOS No5 butt at The War & Peace show today. It is a converted Herbert Morris HM/N49 butt, with the butt swivel recess very neatly patched as you indicated. Didn't find anything scintillating, but did also pick up a very nice set of Canadian walnut No4 wood. Only saw one No32 for sale & that was quickly snapped up by a fellow forummer from the Welsh valleys...

Get a new buttstock pad from Numrich - your shoulder will thank you.

That was an interesting comment DRP, thread 14. Makes you wonder where all these odds and sods have been stored or hiding for the past 50 years. You'd have thought that if the UK Ordnance ordered, say 800 No5 butts in 1967, then approved a converted pattern, had them wrapped, packed and sent to where they were needed, the maufacturer would have been pleased to get rid of the lot!!!!! My memory was that they were all converted on contract by Westley Richards. I assume that they were still in business in the 60's......?

I remember them putting out a price list of No.4 parts in the '80s, I even bought the charger bridge convertor clip from them.

Hi Peter, MkVII et al; I think Westley's are still in existence now......one of a rapidly diminishing band. I can remember in the early 1980's when I'd not long been granted my dealer's ticket going along there as they had a load of nice Kar 98k's. I bought four, but I couldn't afford to buy any of the pile of scopeless No4 T's they also had in stock at 50 quid apiece! You can't put an old head on young shoulders; I'd've pawned my grannie to buy the lot nowadays!

I wonder if they still have the old contract details for their work for the MoD?

I suspect they are one of those names that have moved from one buyer to another like pass-the-parcel in recent years. Not much more than the name and the goodwill - no records or service obligations.

I really appreciate everyone's insight. It's been a busy week, but I plan to take it out this weekend and see how it shoots. I did take time to pull it apart and everything looks correct. Looks like the butt disc may remain a mystery for a while.