SMLE Trigger work and handguard question.

Hello, I have two questions that I need help with.

1) I have stripped all the wood furniture off my No1 Mk3 to see why I have a hair trigger. Turns out that the trigger, at rest, is pressing against the sear with no slack, and only allowing it to engage at the very edge of the bolt catch. the bolt will release if I bump the cocking piece. However, with the trigger removed, the sear will raise completely home and engage the cocking piece properly. Are there varying sizes of triggers? Do I need to do some filing on the trigger or the trigger guard?

2) Where can I find rivets for the rear handguard spring clip? I've searched high and low with no results.

Thank you for your time!

You have what is not an uncommon problem with some civilian owned LEs. It sounds like the rifle has been assembled but the trigger has not been set up and adjusted with those parts on that rifle.

The trigger is mounted to the trigger guard. Consequently, the relative position of the trigger to the sear can be effected by the woodwork and how the guard is fitted.

Check to make sure that the trigger guard's mag well loop portion is straight and flat (it sounds like yours could be bowed) and that it sits right down into the inlet and bears along the bottom of the inletting along its length.

The front trigger guard screw must be tight and the steel bushing in the hole is correctly set in length (not too long).

You don't mention if this is how the rifle came to you. A previous owner could have assembled it with random parts and and not gone through the procedure to fit them properly and adjust.
This trigger guard mounting of the trigger was an issue in so much that Enfield actually did an update to the design on the later No.4 Mk.2 to remove the trigger from the guard and hang it from a support on the receiver to eliminate the problem of trigger pull off going out of adjustment.

Your problem can be fixed, you just need to read up on adjusting pull off. The resource is here if you do a search.

Rivets for the hand guard spring clip? You might have to make them. It is the tiny brass washers that are impossible to find.

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Originally Posted by englishman_ca

You have what is not an uncommon problem with some civilian owned LEs. It sounds like the rifle has been assembled but the trigger has not been set up and adjusted with those parts on that rifle.

The trigger is mounted to the trigger guard. Consequently, the relative position of the trigger to the sear can be effected by the woodwork and how the guard is fitted.

Check to make sure that the trigger guard's mag well loop portion is straight and flat (it sounds like yours could be bowed) and that it sits right down into the inlet and bears along the bottom of the inletting along its length.

The front trigger guard screw must be tight and the steel bushing in the hole is correctly set in length (not too long).

You don't mention if this is how the rifle came to you. A previous owner could have assembled it with random parts and and not gone through the procedure to fit them properly and adjust.
This trigger guard mounting of the trigger was an issue in so much that Enfield actually did an update to the design on the later No.4 Mk.2 to remove the trigger from the guard and hang it from a support on the receiver to eliminate the problem of trigger pull off going out of adjustment.

Your problem can be fixed, you just need to read up on adjusting pull off. The resource is here if you do a search.

Rivets for the hand guard spring clip? You might have to make them. It is the tiny brass washers that are impossible to find.

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I should have prefaced that I have assembled this no1 mk3 with nearly all NOS parts.... foolishly thinking that I could drop in and play like an AR15. This has been a 3 year project and am getting antsy to finish it. I also have reproduction whitehead scope mounts as I intend to replicate a first war sniper.

So, I have read Laidler's trigger pull off documents. If I understand right, I need to buy a fist full of triggers and possibly trigger guards and see which fits best as there are some slight variations. THEN, I would work on stoning the first stage as the sear demands?

Thank you for your time!

I may have one copy left of the Canadian Ordnance Corps, Extracts from Instructions for Armourers that details exactly what needs to be done to set up everything on an SMLE from scratch. I'm lucky to have purchased hundreds of SMLE spares many years ago and am lucky to be able to select fit from bins of parts as you describe. It can be very time consuming but not that difficult. I can't imagine just slapping one together like an AR15 which any garage gunsmith can do. Working these old rifles is a real world learning experience. It's easy to make them pretty but not so much to make them fit and function correctly. Email me at bdlltd@bellsouth.net if interested and I'll see if I have one copy left. I still keep a clean one in my reference library and an ugly, greasy one with many handwritten notes on my bench but I seriously doubt I'll ever have them printed again as too many folks just don't buy books anymore thinking they can get everything they need as a free download off the internet.

Before you stone any thing check to see if your trigger guard is bent it must be straight. The correct length collar is a must.

I'd make a guess that if it's been assembled it with nos parts, he may have more problems in store than the trigger.

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Originally Posted by tsquared82

I should have prefaced that I have assembled this no1 mk3 with nearly all NOS parts.... foolishly thinking that I could drop in and play like an AR15. This has been a 3 year project and am getting antsy to finish it. I also have reproduction whitehead scope mounts as I intend to replicate a first war sniper.

So, I have read Laidler's trigger pull off documents. If I understand right, I need to buy a fist full of triggers and possibly trigger guards and see which fits best as there are some slight variations. THEN, I would work on stoning the first stage as the sear demands?

Thank you for your time!

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These rifles were the last of the 'Hand Built, Victorian Era Rifles'

Every one was hand built with each part hand-fitted by Armourers who knew what to do, how to do it, and the effect it would have on adjacent parts.


These rifles are the exact opposite of 'plug & play'.

I built my 1st one up piece by piece "0ne piece at a time" (ala Johhny cash) sourced from every corner of the planet. Eventually everything was together and functioning, but it JUST WOULDN'T COCK.

Eventually traced the fault to the forend fouling and stopping it cocking. Replaced the forend with one off my No1 MK3 410 shotgun and it worked.



Johnny Cash - One Piece At A Time - YouTube

Well, I fiddled about with the trigger as much as I could. Even ordered a small handful of triggers and a second trigger guard. I've made sure that the trigger guard is absolutely level and straight as required. I've tried following Mr. Laidler's instructions on setting the trigger guard screw collar height by counting the turns and backing off a hair... which seems to leave a small gap still at full 1/2" stock collar length.

When assembled WITHOUT any wood furniture on the metal.... the sear is held down to just a cross-eyed look away from firing unless the trigger guard fore end is only about a 1/4" from the rest of the action... which doesn't seem normal.

My brain is telling me that I am at the point to where I need to file/stone my trigger to allow just the first stage to rest at the cocked position... and not be a hair trigger.

Is there any further enlightenment? I feel like I may destroy my enfield. (Had to walk away from it today for fear of throwing it through my wall in a Chevy Chase style fit from Christmas Vacation.)

My cocking piece is "DP" stamped. I may order another one without that marking if possible, just to eliminate that potential variable while I am at it.

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Originally Posted by tsquared82

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My cocking piece is "DP" stamped. I may order another one without that marking if possible, just to eliminate that potential variable while I am at it.

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Just a very small quote on Peter's article on DP rifles :

And before I forget, let me remind you of something else too, JUST in case you’re tempted to buy one to use as spare parts. This is what the Armourers bible says. ‘……..it will be assembled as far as possible with components which are below the standard required for a service weapon’. And another thing you ought to remember. There were NO gauging limits for DP rifles. Mmmmmmm, food for thought there!


It could well be dimensionally incorrect (along with any other parts from a DP that you may have used - the parts were not always marked DP)

Tsquared
Just a suggestion - could you post some close-up pictures of the trigger/sear/cocking piece setup without the wood in place?
Maybe it will be obvious where the error lies.
Rob

Ok. I understand your frustration. Many of us have been where you are right now.

I will try to give you some tips, but understand that I am not an apprentice served armourer, but only an enthusiastic amateur who has done a couple of dozen sets of wood from square one. I have experienced many perplexing problems, but always managed to fix them by working though the process step by step. It takes time. Follow Capt Laidler's instructions to the letter.
,
What you have is fat wood. Fat in the body, fat in the barrel band inlets, fat in the draws, fat in the barrel channel. Replacement stocks are thus oversized as it is a lot easier to fit something up by removing wood than it is trying to add it. You will get there with patience, but there is a procedure and sequence to go through.

So you have some extra triggers to bugger up, um , I mean adjust. That is good. The procedure has a learning curve.

Not too sure about the cocking piece being marked DP. Somebody thought that is was worth marking DP so it would not be used in a live rifle. It might have been ground or modified sometime in the past, who knows why it is DP marked. I don't think that it is the likely cause of your trigger pull off problem but might cause other issues. Get rid of it.

When you fit the stock to the action, are you happy with the bedding? The action sits right down in the wood. Good contact on the underside of the receiver? Have you smoke smudged the metal to see where it is touching when bedded down into the wood?
Edges of the receiver ring not hanging up on anything? Barrel reinforce sitting on its inlet? Does the stock give upwards pressure on the underside of the barrel at the muzzle?

Without the fore stock bedded and the action sitting down tight, you will not get anywhere with the trigger.

Let me ask you a couple questions which might give us some clues. I spend hours at the bench making wood from scratch and always enjoy the stocking up part. To some it is a nightmare, but to me is hours of relaxed time at the bench.
It can take me a week to get an action fitted, working on it every evening. It takes a lot of time. For the final final stages of stocking up, I use shaped scrapers to get in there and shave off the smallest amount of the wood to make things bed down. I probably fit and check the wood a hundred times in the process.

Take the wood off, fit the front trigger guard screw bushing and mount the trigger guard. What do you get happening with the trigger pull off? Take some pics of the sear, trigger and cocking piece in the cocked position. Show us what is happening. We will adjust from there.

With the trigger guard and wood removed, how much engagement of the sear are you getting on the cocking piece bent? You mentioned it was almost on the edge at rest? Take a pic for us an show how much engagement.

Remove the bolt and take a peek down into the receiver from above. Look to where the upper face of the sear arm touches the underside of the receiver. It should be right there under the bolt way. Get a good light and see if there are any punch marks or any damage to the metal in the receiver, an eight of an inch above where the sear touches the corner edge of the receiver.
I ask because this is where one can set the height of the sear at rest. The sear tip should sit a little bit away from the edge of the cocking piece edge to be taken up by first pressure on the trigger.

Only when you are satisfied with everything is a go, then start stoning the bumps on the trigger. I have take off triggers in the bins where the bumps have been stoned down to almost nothing. So have at her, keep your original trigger aside and bugger up a spare one first.

Trigger-guard: Bent and/or TWISTED?

Stock Collar (the steel tube between the trigger-guard and the body): Not the correct length?

There was an official gauge and tool for evaluating and adjusting these collars; now virtually unobtainable and probably quite expensive, assuming someone knows what they have.

Originally, the collar was adjusted to the fitted fore-end, thus it is NOT an interference fit in the wood of the fore-end. The collar is there for VERTICAL stability, not lateral.

All this fitting, gauging, adjusting, rinse and repeat, was hugely expensive in skilled labour; done properly, it produced a superb end result, but was a bit of a worry when your system suddenly needed several hundred thousand rifles to make up for last months combat losses (see the butcher's bill for 1916 alone) and expanded recruit intake.

Peter Laidler has hereabouts posted some detailed instructions on the finer points of getting these rifles RIGHT. Find them, print them, read and annotate / highlight as desired, then follow them in detail. Worth more than their weight in unobtainium!

Well, here are the images of what I am dealing with so far. I have replaced the "DP" cocking piece with an in-service one. Without any wood in the equation, the sear appears to rest nicely up on the cocking piece as seen in the images. The trigger guard is perfectly flat as has been mentioned in a few resources for accuracy. This leaves the trigger guard about a 1/4" from the trigger guard screw threads ((This is the point where the 1st stage touches the sear)). If I attempt to lift the trigger guard to the [proper?] level at about the height of the trigger guard collar, the trigger lowers the sear to a thou of releasing the cocking piece. It takes only a manual tap behind the cocking piece or a bump of the trigger [no or barely any engagement of the 2nd stage] to let the cocking piece fly forward. I've tried a few triggers, both NOS and used. All have the same issue. I've tried another trigger guard... same story. You can see that with the magazine in place, it demands the trigger guard to be at about the height of the collar/bushing.

This is where I am being driven bananas. :madsmile:

There is an image of the trigger hinge with a red circle around it. should I file that area back a bit to allow the trigger to rest further forward and allow the sear to relax some? Should I file the 1st stage? The sear?

I've read the documents of Mr. Laidler. However a wealth of knowledge they are, they aren't helping in this particular instance of a rut.

The bushing goes between the trigger guard and the barrel. You do not show one.

I do have one, my apologies for not including it in the picture. In the image with the magazine in place, that is about the height it would be with my bushing in place. and when it is in there, it presents the described problem. The same scenario with the sear engagement on the cocking piece with the bushing there. I will try to get another image tomorrow. But the problem would have the same illustration. I left the bushing out of the images to show how close the trigger guard had to be to the barrel for the sear to be operating normal to my perception.

I notice you have some Lithgow parts installed.

This is fascinating. I think that we can figure this one out. Humor us trying to find a practical hands on solution from a distant keyboard!
No training, only absorbing what I can from others. But I have spent hours playing around with LE two stage triggers. My experience is all trial and error (lots of error), I have never failed to eventually get it working as per specs. All part of the hobby that seems to satisfy my OCD.

It would have been useful to see pics of the relative position of components with the front trigger guard bushing fitted, but with the wood removed. This bushing when adjusted correctly to the fore end, will position the trigger guard in the exact same position with or without the fore end assembled. This is how you will test your progress, by assembling the guard with the bushing.
When we finally get this thing adjusted, the trigger will work in the same way with the rifle fully assembled, or assembled without wood but with bushing in place.
But your pics of the trigger guard positioned helps tell the story too.

I can see that with no wood, the sear tip at cocked position is sitting nicely on the cocking piece bent face. So the sear position looks good.
I cant see the sear being bent, the sear itself is a casting and is quite brittle, they just don't bend, even if you try (ask me how I know!).
I compared a group of sears in my bins to each other and there was next to nothing in the variations dimensionally. Your sear is probably good.

Yes, filing the trigger guard under the trigger stop in that red circle seems drastic, but if need be (shouldn't need), make sure that there is enough clearance to allow the trigger to move away from sear. When fitted and adjusted, it should have a rattling loose clearance. (Once the bumps are reduced, it might clear, do you have a used trigger with low bumps to try?).
This might be the problem all along, trigger has to clear the sear!!!! My focus would be right here, getting the trigger bumps to clear and not influence the sear when sitting at cocked position. Something is definitely going on right here with the trigger touching and pushing the sear forward instead of a slight clearance.

The variables that I see are the trigger guard with its positioning of the trigger relative to the sear (bent guard, stock's trig guard inlet and bushing), and the height of trigger bumps themselves. Everything else is determined and positioned by manufacturing tolerances, not a lot left to adjust.

It would be useful to try a nice well used and worn trigger with low bumps first. I am thinking that if you are assembling a rifle from NOS parts, maybe the trigger will be NOS too, and it has very high bumps ready to be stoned down to suit.
I think that I might be touching on, but skirting all around the problem

I would start stoning the bumps on the trigger. You have a second trigger spare if (for me it would be when) you screw up, right? Have at her! It doesn't take long to figure out what happens when material is removed, but it is real easy to remove too much.


And, as a last resort...(this will stir the pot and get some people going!)

I note that in 1984 Canadian Armourers' instructions, to switch out trigger guards for fit. But there there is also mention that to get trigger adjustment, and if no replacements are available, to bend the trigger guard. Yes, I know, this does fly in the face of normal instructions, but No.4 rifles are still in service in Canada, replacement parts are getting meagre or non existent. This is a Canadian work around.
Bending the trigger guard has a huge effect. That is why it is important when setting up to have it straight so that we are starting at square one. Maybe experiment a bit by bending your spare trigger guard? Bubba knows this trick well.

Whatever the problem is, it is not far off. Some adjustment needed.

I wonder if the use of this tool would assist
How to make the tool (Page 3:2:29)
How to use the tool (page 3:2:30)

Sear Stop Adjustment.




Which then goes onto say :

NOTE
In the past, slight distortion of the trigger
guard, in the area at the rear of the
magazine opening, may have been
performed as an expedient means of
adjusting trigger pull in the field. This
condition may have to be corrected prior to
adjusting the trigger pull.

That is a great reference there AdeE, thank you for posting. It is a much more up to date version than the one that I currently have.

A simple substitute for the sear stop adjustment tool that seems to work for me is with the use of a center punch to displace metal to adjust the sear position. Some may cringe at me using a round punch, but all I am really doing is using a dot instead of a dash. ???

In the case of the OP's rifle, we checked. The position of the sear tip seems to be sitting on the cocking piece bent face at full cock is just fine. No adjustment needed.

Something simple is out of whack here. Just gotta find it.

I appreciate all the input and help here! Here are some more pictures to include the trigger guard screw bushing in place. You can see that the trigger is in full contact with the sear on the 1st stage and is almost touching the 2nd. The trigger, in this cocked position, is a cross-eyed glance away from firing. The 2nd stage nub has to only tickle the sear before it touches off. It seams that there would be a ton of filing and stoning (Proper tool and technique for that if it is the problem?) to be done.

Granted, I still need to complete the full bedding of my rifle in the stock. There are areas where I will need to use cork or cardboard to shore up some areas. but in my brain... if the action won't work properly as it stands now, it does no good to try and continue fitting the action any further until resolved.

I have tried to insert a well used trigger as well instead of the NOS... same issue.

It's all moot unless you fit the forend correctly with no shimming of cork or cardboard and adjust the front guard screw collar first following Peter's instructions posted here on this site. Then disassemble, reinstall the collar and trigger guard without the wood and take on the fitting of the trigger/sear/cocking piece engagement. It's tedious and time consuming but that's the correct way to do it.

Replaced the sear?

I had fiddled with following laidler's instructions regarding the collar but with what I'm seeing, the collar would end up being cut down by half before allowing proper function. I understand what you are all saying. I'll take another look at the fitment of the forend... it's not as bad as I described earlier, I hope. And I'll see to Laidler's directions. I still strongly feel that filing on the trigger nubs will be in order... or other metal in the area. I have another sear, I'll slap that in and see what happens as well. I may disassemble a wall queen enfiled that I have which I know functions and compare the two.

Question: by shortening the collar if prescribed... the trigger guard screw will have some slop in it after being fully tightened. How could I remedy that?

Oh ok, I missunderstood. There is still some bedding to be done and finished up? Let's take a break on the trigger pull until bedded.

No point in fiddling with the trigger anymore as bedding can move the relative position of the guard. Things will change for better or worse. Who knows? Fettling the bedding might even cure your trigger problem.

Everything is very much inter-related. Adjusting the action down into the fore end will let the receiver sit down and bottom out in the wood, which might give you the trigger clearance that you need.
Something simple, such as adjusting the bedding to increase the upwards pressure on the barrel at the muzzle can and will throw trigger pull right off. It is a big cycle, first things first and work through the process. Sometimes the process takes you back to square one or two a number of times, but patience is key.

IF I were making a stock from scratch for this one and I had this problem with the trigger when stocking up, I would be looking at the trigger guard inlet for giving me issues. Even factory stocks sometimes need a little adjustment here.
However, I would not worry about that and the trigger pull off until the bedding is rock solid to my satisfaction. Trigger pull off is one of the last things to tune. Follow the sequence.

But this is a factory fore end, correct? British? Not repro?

The action is not a drop in fit in a new stock, not even a factory made one.

I seem to be the go to guy for Lee Enfields around here. Some locals lads have started to bring me their newly acquired Lee Enfields that they cant keep on a paper target, or their rifle has developed a crack (yes, the 'damned crack' is very common) in the wood. There seems to be a new generation of interested shooters. Bubba is still alive and well.
The problem is usually because they bought a restored sporter that looks like a pretty, but has badly fitted wood, or not fitted at all. I have also found the wood simply hogged out with a Dremmel in places where the metal touched so that the wood will go on and the bands will fasten up, that's it!. EEEk! for such a case I refer them to somebody who does glass bedding. It is too difficult (but not impossible) to put wood back once removed.
The best tool for fitting the draws is a sharp chisel and a scraper. The draws can't be fitted well using a Dremmel!

This is over simplifying, but the entire action pivots on the front trigger guard screw bedding like a teeter totter. You have fat wood to fettle.
Often I find that it is something so simple as the receiver ring and barrel reinforce fit that wont let the receiver bottom out. These have to be worked in unison with the draws. Check all the inlet corners for binding. Black the action with candle soot and see where it is touching. The draws could be holding the wood up proud and causing you grief.

For final fitting, I use sharp shaped steel scrapers to shave off wood the tiniest amount at a time.

As for shortening the trigger screw bushing? If you had to shorten it enough to allow the screw to bottom out, there is something very wrong.