Smith and Wesson 1917 - Polished Backstrap?

Hi all,

Picked up a nice 1917 in an auction last week. Beautiful, original, bluing.
Strangest thing though, the backstrap is polished.

It was wearing a Pachmayr grip but that will be replaced with wooden ones. But of course that's even stranger, the polished area was covered up by the grips that were on it.

Anyone ever see anything like that? It wasn't like that as issued, was it?

It's nicer than my refurbished, parkerized one so I'm keeping it anyway. Just thought that backstrap was strange. I might put some cold blue on there just for display.

Thanks!

It was probably worn to the white and someone thought they would sort it out...my wheel guns all wear like that too.

Making wear look flashy. That makes as much sense as anything else.
The US military was fond of leaving random things in the white. Thought I'd ask just in case. I'll have to get some pictures posted of it tonight. It's really in quite nice shape other than that.
Here's a few not-so-great pics from the auction. You can just make out the top of the polished backstrap in the last one:

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The revolver looks polished and blue...not bead blasted and matt finish. I don't have a handle on all these and only owned one of them through time. US handguns of the time should be a flat finish shouldn't they? The ordnance bomb looks crisp so it wouldn't have been polished and redone. Is it early or late...I don't think the backstrap could have been deliberately left white though. They bath blued these I think... If they were done by hand then it could have, like the Mauser military pistols of early. Those were done outside while the inside of the frame was in the white. The mechanism too...

Your cold blue won't stay long if you shoot this. If you wanted to cover it for all time, a man that blues professionally could do it with a strong bath of salts and just a paper touch up of the backstrap. The gun would be stripped completely and frame only go in. No other polish and you'd never be able to tell it had been done. A strong bath might well enrich the rest of the frame too...

Nice looking revolver too, yes, that grip needs to go.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

The revolver looks polished and blue...not bead blasted and matt finish. I don't have a handle on all these and only owned one of them through time. US handguns of the time should be a flat finish shouldn't they?

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That's a good question. As you state, the bomb is super crisp. The eagle head proof mark (??) is also minty crisp. I can't recall the serial number but it is earlier than my current one. I'll have to look at that tonight.

And get more pictures. I wouldn't hate it if the finish wasn't original but I'd sure prefer it to be.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

I wouldn't hate it if the finish wasn't original but I'd sure prefer it to be.

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I'll bet it is, maybe someone will see this and answer us...

Serial number is 34575.

According to the snappy-titled "America's munitions 1917-1918 : report of Benedict Crowell, the Assistant Secretary of War, Director of Munitions," that would date it somewhere around early April of 1918. The books say the GHD inspector mark was removed in April 1918, so that jives as well.

I've attached a screenshot of the output chart from that book. This chart is a treasure trove of information all in one little box, if you haven't seen it.

Some more pics:
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I've ordered a sling swivel and reproduction grips are on the way from, of all places, Thailand.

From those pics I too believe it's original polish and blue from manufacture, didn't see much use. Could have sat in a collection after being liberated anywhere after manufacture. The backstrap is easy to polish within the lines of shape but you can't just do a little...maybe a light fur of rust formed and the owner felt guilty. Anyway, I wonder if you could do a rust blue on the back strap so as not to disturb the rest? Then it would match and be durable... Nice revolver...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Anyway, I wonder if you could do a rust blue on the back strap so as not to disturb the rest? Then it would match and be durable.

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Rust blue...now that’s an idea. Not really much “infrastructure” required for that either. I like the way you think!

It's not a "rust blue", it's what S&W called "Carbona / Carbonia" bluing, using an oil mixture, sperm whale oil, "Tar pitch" and bone charcoal ect.

The American Gas Furnace Co. Supplied the equipment to S&W, Colt, Marlin, Winchester ect.

AGF Co. processes were referred to (at various times and various people) as "temper", "engine" or "machine" bluing.

S&W continued using the process into about 1970.

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

It's not a "rust blue", it's what S&W called "Carbona / Carbonia" bluing, using an oil mixture, sperm whale oil, "Tar pitch" and bone charcoal ect.

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That would require a lot of infrastructure. I think rust bluing this narrow strip would be a respectful way to go on this 102 year old revolver.
It will certainly protect it and while it may not be a perfect match to the carbonia bluing, I think it'll look better than cold blue. Certainly helps that a bottle of rust bluing solution will only run me about $16.

Thanks for the input, by the way. I knew Colt was big into carbonia bluing but I didn't know S&W did the same.
When did Colt make the change in their process? I assume they both went to a hot bath blue?

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Originally Posted by rcathey

That would require a lot of infrastructure

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I've never had any luck landing a Sperm Whale.......

Sorry, Couldn't resist.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

That would require a lot of infrastructure. I think rust bluing this narrow strip would be a respectful way to go on this 102 year old revolver.
It will certainly protect it and while it may not be a perfect match to the carbonia bluing, I think it'll look better than cold blue. Certainly helps that a bottle of rust bluing solution will only run me about $16.

Thanks for the input, by the way. I knew Colt was big into carbonia bluing but I didn't know S&W did the same.
When did Colt make the change in their process? I assume they both went to a hot bath blue?

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Apparently Colt changed to hot salt bluing during ww2.

S&W soldiered on until approx. 1970...

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

It's not a "rust blue", it's what S&W called "Carbona / Carbonia" bluing,

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I didn't say it was. I said rust blue would match. It's a beautiful deep color that's durable and looks like this original effort by the manufacturer.

Rust bluing solution and a carding brush are on the way from Brownell's.

So for this revolver I'll be looking at:
Purchase Price - $451
Swivel - $42
Grips - $39
Rust bluing the backstrap - $36
Total - $568

And I'll be selling my current one. I'll probably break even on this deal. Not bad!
I'll post some pics of the bluing process.

Wish I could buy your current one...being up here would make it prohibitive for a couple reasons.

Let us see after...also range report.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Wish I could buy your current one...being up here would make it prohibitive for a couple reasons.

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I've got some pics of that one on this computer as well. Sorry to twist the knife!
It's been through a heavy repark. This one, actually, also came to me in a monogrip and missing the swivel and original grips. Seems most of them led a few lives after serving their country.

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Looks good, would be better than the South American issue I had. It had a couple of faults mechanically and ended up being sold to someone in Germany... Anyway, I have a Colt Govt' to tide me over.

Had a look at My .455 S&W and the back has lost most of its colour etc were it sits in the palm of the hand, its got the brown look but seems just to be in that area, maybe the reason someone has give yours a good polish?

Must admit when I picked this up it didn't look (or feel, if that makes any sense) like it was over 100 years old.....

Step One: Get rid of that polish.

Fortunately, whoever polished the backstrap did so carefully. There's no severe rounding and edges are still pretty sharp.

Using 220 then 320 grit sandpaper cut into thin strips, I used really light strokes perpendicular to the grip. This should come somewhat close to matching the original surfaces.

The rust bluing solution and carding brush came in yesterday.
My plan is to swing by a Goodwill and hopefully snag a hot plate (or else just pay full retail price for one...yuck). Grab a good sized pot while I'm there and I'll be ready to go.

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I have a hot plate for rough work, got it for melting lead back in '85...swing by and pick it up if you like...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I have a hot plate for rough work, got it for melting lead back in '85...swing by and pick it up if you like...

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That'd only be a 35 hour drive. If I could get about 174 miles per gallon of gas that might just work out. Stop at a few pawn shops along the way....

BBQ salmon once you arrive...whatever time...

Hmm, well, I don't like the looks of this first pass. I'm going to power through at least a couple more cycles and see if things even out.

I've attached here a picture showing it after the first rusting, my super slick boiling rig, and after the first boiling.

Good news, though, my new grips came in from Thailand and they look super cool! I went with these checkered ones. The checkering isn't great which I felt gave it kind of a trench art feel. This seller has more if you look at his other listings. The fit is fantastic and I'm very happy with the price point.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/S-W-M1917-G...72.m2749.l2649

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The bluing will come along...keep at it. There's a couple threads here too showing results if you need to keep morale up. The grips look pretty good too...

RC,
Fun to watch from this end !

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Originally Posted by painter777

RC,
Fun to watch from this end !

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Glad you’re enjoying the journey, Charlie!
Unfortunately, the second coat did pretty much nothing.
Maybe I’m just not waiting long enough for it to rust? I’ve given it about 12 hours each time.
I’m going to let this next one go a full 24.

Its a learning curve bluing, I disregard any info regarding times etc, (although leaving it too long can result in pitting...) , the pics show it hasn't rusted enough, make sure the area is spotless clean, if its not showing any signs of rust or very little then give it another pass with the solution, to speed up the process after applying the solution leave in a humid place to rust.
some rust bluing can take a lot of passes and boils......

Some good tips there, thanks!
I'm probably being quite conservative because I really don't want any pits forming.
I do this work in my basement but I run a dehumidifier constantly. Maybe I'll shut that off for a couple days while working on this.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

I do this work in my basement but I run a dehumidifier constantly. Maybe I'll shut that off for a couple days while working on this.

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May help, also leaving it in the cold then bringing it into the warmth or even leaving it in the bathroom during and after a shower..... in theory you shouldn't be able to see the shiny underneath, the whole area should be a powder of rust.

In all cases its the cleaning that is the major factor, a good detergent then acetone or similar.

I have not used a detergent. Only acetone.
That may be something to try as well.

Ok, this one went better.
The main difference was I pretty much ignored the instructions, haha.

They say to basically use a slightly damp cloth to apply the solution. This leaves the thinnest of films on the surface.

I did not do that. Using a wet q-tip, I applied an even (but heavy) coat of the stuff. Since the revolver just came out of the boiling water from the last cycle, the solution dried almost immediately. Overnight, I got the rust layer you see below.

After boiling the surface got almost uniformly black.
Finally, I attached a picture showing the surface after carding. It's hard to capture the color with light reflections but I assure you it's getting darker and more even.

Nice! Next coat is rusting as we speak.

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Looking good, look forward to the final carding, I've got my Webley .455 Auto to do at some point

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Originally Posted by rcathey

Next coat is rusting as we speak.

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Looking good and I think on it's way. Patience and let's see what the end looks like. Don't stop short until it's prefect, we have time...

I think I'm pretty much there!
It's a little light but I think this will match the level of wear elsewhere on the revolver.

I have this "curing" with a coat of oil right now. I'll see how it looks tonight and decide if I want to clean and do another cycle. I think it's going to be just right though.

I'll get some pics once it's all assembled again. I'm taking this opportunity to give the internals a deep clean.

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Yep, looks like it's coming along...should match nicely. I guess we'll see how long it lasts, depending on how much you shoot it.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I guess we'll see how long it lasts, depending on how much you shoot it.

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A good long while! I spend more time buying/selling than shooting these days.
I got into because I like guns and their history and now I'm doing so much of it I don't have time to enjoy them. That's about how life works out.
But hey, I have 'em and not many people do. So I'm thankful!

And here it is!

Yup, I'm definitely happy with this. If I picked this revolver up as it is now, I wouldn't even look twice at the backstrap. It came out great and really blends in with the rest of the revolver. I attached a picture showing the front strap for a comparison.

For anyone on the fence, I suggest trying the rust bluing. It's much more time intensive than difficult.
If I were to do this again, I'd use a soap first then acetone for the surface prep.
For the rusting phase, I'd track down a toaster oven and put the revolver on one rack and a pan of water on the other.
When applying the solution, I used a heavier hand than the instructions suggest and that worked best for me.
I wiped down with acetone after carding before putting on more solution.

This is a mighty fine looking wheel gun :cheers:.

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Yup, looks pretty good...another story to tell when taking a friend on a tour of the gun box... Nice.

Excellent, amazing what controlled rust can do......

Thanks, guys.
I appreciate the encouragement along the way! It's definitely a skill I will find useful again down the road.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

I have not used a detergent. Only acetone.
That may be something to try as well.

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Instead of using cleaners like acetone white gas, aerosols etc I boil off the part in soft water with washing soda. Then just make sure not to touch with bare skin. Last time I did something I thought I would use some dish detergent to help clean before the boil/steam pipe
but the parts came out poorly so I had to redo. Luckily it was not anything spectacular and it came out well in the end. What I should have done was just left out the detergent bath.
Some of the parts in the pan did not come into contact with the detergent dish soap.
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RC,
That was entertaining,
I was looking forward to 1 or 2 more dips..........
With no commercials it just seemed to go too fast.
It does look nice, Congrats to you.
Looking forward to the next project........ Maybe a Video ?

BAR,
A+ for moral support.

Doco,
Very nice, good tips and love your money shot picture!

bigduke,
Great tips, looking forward to your project.

Who says 4 guys can't change a tire ?

Cheers All