HELP! Civil war collectible or later civilian copy?

In amongst some helmets and such that I picked up at an estate sale, there is an old (and I mean OLD) canteen. Any collector of vintage anything knows, or knows of, somebody who sold something valuable for peanuts because they didn't do proper research. I'm not saying this canteen is U.S. civil war, but from pics I've seen, the possibility exists as it looks like period pieces from that era. The canvas and stitching are very old, but the strap and perhaps the chain used to hold the stopper may be later additions. Any real civil war buffs able to either give me a definitive yes or no or point me at someone who can. Thank you all!

I don't think those buckles are military at all. They look chromed too...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I don't think those buckles are military at all. They look chromed too...

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Jim, read my post. For sure the strap isn't civil war period and the buckle proves that. To reiterate, the chain MAY be though pictures of civil war canteens like this one didn't show some kind of stopper retention system. To clarify, I need someone knowledgeable who can either tell me more about the canteen or point me towards a person or site where I can get solid information.

Wood, leather, cloth ... they all age merely by exposure to the air.

That cloth/webbing doesn't look any older than me.

My guess: post-WW2

Patrick, I appreciate the input, but as you say, "your guess". Take a look at ebay or do some online research. There are verified civil war canteens that don't look any different from the one I picked up. As I mentioned, I'm looking for someone who can tell me what to look at, what to look for, or to point me to a site or appraiser who can give me an definitive answer.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

As I mentioned, I'm looking for someone who can tell me what to look at, what to look for, or to point me to a site or appraiser who can give me an definitive answer.

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Yours for $51. Good luck.
https://m.barnesandnoble.com/p/the-civil-war-canteen-third-edition-robert-jones/1129039017/2660126181953?st=PLA&sid=BNB_ADL+Marketplace+Good+New+Books+-+Mobile+Low&sourceId=PLAGoNA&dpid=tdtve346c&2sid=Google_m&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqqqDjOXs4wIVB_7jBx2TYwIjEAQYASAB EgLkd_D_BwE

Well Lawrence, at the risk of offending you and receiving the same condescension as you have given Patrick and Jim - both respected individuals, by the way - I will tell you that your canteen is nothing like the standard canteen patterns made and issued during the American Civil War by either side, it is post World War One, probably later, especially the strap which has features dating after 1945. It is civilian, not military.

Follow rcathey's recommendation on references.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

point me to a site or appraiser

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You, like so many others that come here want to hear what you want to hear. Why not just leave it and imagine what you want to imagine? Or, we can keep telling you what it isn't. Anyway, here's a bit easier link to follow...

The Civil War Canteen - Third Edition by Robert Jones, Paperback | Barnes

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Originally Posted by gew8805

respected individuals,

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You're very kind...

Your canteen looks remarkably similar to a canteen that you've already posted a picture of on another thread and I have tried to give an answer.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=68246

We've all made mistakes when buying collectables/antiques/etc/etc, we've all over-paid at some point and we've, probably, all been ripped-off, at least once. Hopefully, with experience, by learning by our mistakes and by listening to others we don't make a habit of it.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Your canteen looks remarkably similar to a canteen that you've already posted a picture of on another thread

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In which he said...

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

The canteen feels too flimsy for a military piece and I'm assuming it's a civilian made "military style" canteen.

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Originally Posted by gew8805

it is post World War One, probably later, especially the strap which has features dating after 1945.

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Thanks gew8805.

And for the benefit of Lawrence and others, may I point out that I have no knowledge whatsoever of canteens, Civil War vintage or otherwise. My judgement was based on observation of the materials, nothing else, hence the proviso "as far as I can tell from the photos", which I usually add, but regrettably appear to have omitted in this case.

Styles can be imitated, marks can be falsified, but material ageing is difficult to fake. Cloth and leather are notoriously difficult to preserve, and museums such as the Victoria and Albert have problems with materials merely being exposed to light, temperature variations, and the natural humidity of the surrounding air. Materials that in many cases are younger than the American Civil War. Give the V&A a call if you don't believe me.

Of course, an original artefact may have been preserved at a constant temperature in darkness with zero humidity - such as may actually occur with grave goods - but for the articles with which we are concerned on these forums, that is, to say the least, extremely unlikely.

So look at what you see. If it looks like it was made last week, chances are that it was.

Thank you all, and forgive me if I was a little snippy. I'll probably put it on the table at the next gun show for $5.

Lawrence, the chrome plating process is less than 100 years old, so anything that has chrome plating on it is likely to be less than 100 years old.

https://www.finishing.com/460/30.shtml

You may get a little more than $5 for your canteen but I wouldn't know how much someone would be prepared to pay for your example. You can't put a $5 price tag on your canteen and then, when you get someone interested, increase the price but you could "feel the market". You can do this simply by putting a price tag on your canteen with a price that you are comfortable selling it at, perhaps, partly based on what you paid for it and also what similar canteens are advertised for. If no-one is interested you may then wish to gradually reduce the price in an effort to attract a buyer.

One other aspect that has yet to be mentioned... I was in a Confederate reenacting unit for 5 years or so. This hobby has been going strong for more than 50 years. One of the aspects of reenacting the civil war is that large quantities of period style/design/manufactured reproductions have been made... some of better quality than originals. After several years in the field... the repro items take on wear and tear and exposure degradation.. just like the originals did. Without handling the item in question I'd say that it was a civil war reenactor's canteen.

[QUOTE=Flying10uk;457014]Lawrence, the chrome plating process is less than 100 years old, so anything that has chrome plating on it is likely to be less than 100 years old.

https://www.finishing.com/460/30.shtml
It's not chrome plated! It's tin and sloppy solder (from what I'm seeing). And to WallyG, I'd not thought of the reenactors market and you can imagine that it's not too strong up here in Canada, but I may market it as such at the next gun show. The canteen may not be 100 yrs. old, which is the generally accepted age to be called antique, but it's definitely vintage and from the soldering of joints, it looks to me to be rather crudely made, maybe an itinerant tinker's work.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

It's not chrome plated! It's tin and sloppy solder

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That's your opinion, others may think otherwise.

Okay gentlemen, this thread is getting frustrating on both sides I think. Please try to understand that though I'm pretty knowledgeable on a wide range of things, civil war stuff is totally outside my lane. My research has been confusing in that I get conflicting or erroneous information and opinion. When I originated this thread, I chose the word "definitive" to try to forestall "opinions and beliefs" in the hope that someone would know, from personal experience, the era and/or origin of this canteen. Not that I don't appreciate the input, but again I had hoped for more certainty. To Flying 10UK, I know what chrome looks like, and this is without doubt tin. Perhaps the photograph wasn't that clear. I've seen the old soldering irons, the ones that were square iron tapering to a point and fire heated and used in conjunction with bar solder to do the joinery. This canteen has all the characteristics of that method of soldering. I'm enclosing some better pics to illustrate my point. On another sites, I've seen pics of canteens PURPORTING to be civil war vintage that are almost exactly what I have. I don't wish to sell something valuable for peanuts, but nor do I wish to deceive (intentionally or unintentionally) a prospective buyer. I'm enclosing the pics gleaned from other sites. I've contacted a civil war memorabilia specific web site, but I've not heard back from them so it may be inactive. I apologize if I'm stepping on anyone's toes, but can you understand my dilemma?

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

...in the hope that someone would know, from personal experience, the era and/or origin of this canteen.

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Some of our veterans on this site are old...but jeeze! ;)

Seriously, I think you would be well served by that book I pointed you to.
It's not as convenient as the free answers around here (from which I profit frequently, hence my contributor status) but sometimes you just gotta buy some answers.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

Some of our veterans on this site are old...but jeeze! ;)

Seriously, I think you would be well served by that book I pointed you to.
It's not as convenient as the free answers around here (from which I profit frequently, hence my contributor status) but sometimes you just gotta buy some answers.

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Thank you. I don't think the book would be worth the money laid out for a "one time" deal on something I intend to flog at the next gun show. I'll describe it fairly and allow any prospective buyers to make up their own mind if the canteen is worth the cost. There is one very knowledgeable dealer who's always at these shows and he may be interested.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

To Flying 10UK, I know what chrome looks like, and this is without doubt tin.

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I know what chrome looks like too and that buckle looks chrome plated to me. If it's not chrome plated, the other possibility is nickel plating and this process was developed before chrome plating. Nickel plating is not the same as tin plating.

My apologies, I misunderstood. My friend, in the original post I noted that there is no way the strap is or was originally mated to the canteen. Not only the plating, be it chrome or nickel, but even the construction and style. I now regret not removing the strap since it seems to have become a distraction. If I may clarify, the strap is obviously a much later addition, probaby used to replace the original one which no doubt wore out. I knew it post dated the canteen as soon as I saw it. The strap and it's date or origin is of absolutely no consequence. My interest is solely in the dating the canteen.

If it is of any help in your deliberations... here is the web site of a company that makes reenacting equipment... your canteen looks a great deal like some of these... just aged... and that is the ticket... how old is it. How is it sewn... are there any inspection marks? Toronto is not very far from the US so it is entirely possible that both originals and reenactor equipment's could have come across the border. After all... the northern states just across your border fielded large quantities of soldiers in the Us civil War... so soldier souvenirs and bring home's are not hard to find .

https://www.jarnaginco.com/catframe.html

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Originally Posted by WallyG.

If it is of any help in your deliberations... here is the web site of a company that makes reenacting equipment... your canteen looks a great deal like some of these... just aged... and that is the ticket... how old is it. How is it sewn... are there any inspection marks? Toronto is not very far from the US so it is entirely possible that both originals and reenactor equipment's could have come across the border. After all... the northern states just across your border fielded large quantities of soldiers in the Us civil War... so soldier souvenirs and bring home's are not hard to find .

https://www.jarnaginco.com/catframe.html

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Anything is possible. What kind of leads me away from the "re-enactor" idea is the patina. This thing is OLD. There are no marks or stamps of any kind, but the construction and the material just scream age. Was this style of canteen still produced after the war for the civilian market as well, perhaps for the military? How long was this style of canteen produced? When did re-enacting become of interest? Just for interests sake, I filled with water to see if it had kept its integrity. It didn't leak.

Canada fielded somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000 soldiers during the American civil war to both sides , years ago it was quite common to see civil war relics at local auctions in southern Ontario, at one time I owned a Spencer Carbine that had the owners name carved in the stock "John Young" on the other side the carving read "Surrender of Lee" I traced the gun by serial number to the New York Volunteers, the owner to the same unit, after further research I learned that the units last engagement was at the battle of Appomattox.The gun came out of Kitchener Ontario As well I have seen numerous Union Army Kepis as well as several Confederate swords so its no stretch to find Civil War relics here in Canada . I own martially market 1860 Colt army, Starr and Whitney revolvers all from local Estate sales. Sure the strap is incorrect, that's obvious, you see lots of items with later improvised additions to me the look of the covering and soldered joint certainly give credence to the fact that the canteen itself has age, is it US military that's for the experts

Try contacting this company and see if they can identify your canteen.

Shiloh Civil War RelicsCatalog

It is my understanding that CW reenacting took off around the 100 year anniversary in the early 60's.

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Originally Posted by #1oilman

Canada fielded somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000 soldiers during the American civil war to both sides , years ago it was quite common to see civil war relics at local auctions in southern Ontario, at one time I owned a Spencer Carbine that had the owners name carved in the stock "John Young" on the other side the carving read "Surrender of Lee" I traced the gun by serial number to the New York Volunteers, the owner to the same unit, after further research I learned that the units last engagement was at the battle of Appomattox.The gun came out of Kitchener Ontario As well I have seen numerous Union Army Kepis as well as several Confederate swords so its no stretch to find Civil War relics here in Canada . I own martially market 1860 Colt army, Starr and Whitney revolvers all from local Estate sales. Sure the strap is incorrect, that's obvious, you see lots of items with later improvised additions to me the look of the covering and soldered joint certainly give credence to the fact that the canteen itself has age, is it US military that's for the experts

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Now that is some very interesting information. Thank you. I did know that some Canadians were involved in the war between the states, but I hadn't known the extent. It's very possible that I overlooked civil war militaria at the gun shows merely from a lack of interest. I'll be more on the lookout this weekend at the Jerseryville show. And to Wally G, thank you for the link. I've contracted them with some pics so we'll see what they have to say.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

I've contracted them with some pics so we'll see what they have to say.

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Could you let us know either way, if it is or isn't Civil War, please?

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Could you let us know either way, if it is or isn't Civil War, please?

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Certainly! Given all the assistance you all have provided, I owe you at least that.

Update: I took it to a local gun show, not one of the best, but I knew a very knowledgeable individual would be there. He was very impressed with the items I'd acquired but specifically regarding the canteen, he too agreed that it is period correct. The style, the patina, and the construction are all indicative of civil war era, but, like the rest of us, without a makers mark, unit mark, or an inscription of any kind, he too couldn't positively state that it is civil war. I've yet to hear back from Shiloh Civil War relics.

There are a number of possibilities for the origin and vintage of the canteen. One key detail of your canteen is the sheet steel tin-plated spout. Authors and collectors have created much discussion of the standard pattern sheet steel tin-plated spout canteens supposedly contracted by the Cincinnati Quartermaster Depot during the American Civil War. I'm not so sure that this spout construction is necessarily exclusive to Cincinnati Depot contract(s) but suffice it to say that a relativity small percentage of the canteens manufactured during the Civil War had sheet steel tin-plated spouts. Most of the canteens manufactured to the pattern canteens in the depots had pewter spouts. Speaking of the pattern canteens they were consistent in shape in that both sides were uniformly convex and your example appears to be originally constructed with flattened sides not consistent with the standard pattern Civil War contract canteen.

This brings up the possibility of manufacture on a state contract. In the first year of the war several of the states provided their three-month volunteers with canteens and other accouterments locally manufactured. Canteens of unknown origin similar to the standard federal pattern have been attributed to state contracts. The early issue of the canteens, and relatively small number manufactured, and survival rate of these canteens suggest very few examples exist and without provenance remain unidentified.

In the course of research I have noted that at least two companies reported in correspondence intended to solicit contracts to the Ordnance Department in 1898 that they were manufacturing canteens to military pattern. There is no description or images of these canteens so I can only suggest that your canteen was possibly manufactured for commercial sales in the late 19th Century. At least one of the contractors that manufactured canteens during the War with Spain 1898, manufactured canteens with sheet steel tin-plated spouts. These canteens were assembled with the standard triangular wire loops and double covered with wool petersham and duck covers so are not consistent with your canteen, but does demonstrate that sheet steel tin-plated spouts were still assembled to canteens in 1898.

I occasionally see similar canteens attributed to foreign military service that may also be the source of the canteen, but I don't recall seeing an example with the three strap loops assembled to the canteen and some of the examples shown were porcelain-plated so are not consistent with your canteen. All this suggests a number of possibilities, but to state without equivocation by whom, where and when the canteen was manufactured very difficult to determine.

An image of a canteen similar to yours is illustrated in "Civil War Canteens" Silvia and O'Donnell, 1983/1990, p. 135 with the comment, "Tin oblate spheroid canteen (approx 7 inch diameter) with a tin spout, brown woolen cover and a standard U.S. sling. We have seen quite a few similar specimens, often with Federal provenance, although these have flat faces and are too small to be considered variants of the Model 1858. We suspect these were commercially available during the war and possibly purchased by several state militias."

I rather doubt that you will find anyone, lest of all on this forum that can provide you the definitive answer you seek.

Thank you! I seriously doubt that I'll be able to definitively nail down the canteen's provenance. I felt around under the cloth to see if I could feel how the spout was attached to the body and I couldn't really feel a collar per ser, but I did feel what seems to be a gloop of solder. Without removing the cloth cover, and thus pretty much destroying the value, I don't think there's anything more I can do. I did fail to mention that the face is convex and the back is slightly concave. Was it made that way or is it a result of body wear? Who knows. I've contacted 2 civil war collectors sites and neither had the courtesy to get back to me, though it could be some sites are no longer active. I really appreciate all the info you guys have given. If I put it up at the gun show, I'll list it as an 1858 Pat. canteen with possible civil war provenance.