Envoy accuracy expectations

Gents,

What would one expect the accuracy of a Envoy pattern rifle be at around 100 yards with RG black spot ammunition. I am thinking in terms of expected 10 shot groups. Would you expect to ever have any vertical stringing?


That is a stock gun with Factory bedding and none of the later Fulton mods.


If one saw occasional high and low shots at such a short distance, what would you look at? By high and low I mean around 1 to 1.2 MOA lower and maybe .075 MO higher than the rest of the group.

Thanks in advance

I would question the RG black spot which I have seen some superb shooting with and some very questionable (read crap) results from the same shooter and rifle, in this case an L39.
I've binned most of my old plot sheets and don't remember shooting much at 100 yards, usually 200 and from memory my better results were in the 3 ~ 3.5 MoA area with RG which I happily admit I cannot now replicate with my current spinal issues.
The use of reloads and a 150gr Sierra Match King considerably reduced my group size in a Geoff Hart converted No.4 giving me my one and only 50 at 900 yards some 16 years ago.

That is what I found, using some RG88 ammo. Nice tight ~1.3 minute group in the middle of the 10 ring on the US 300 yard target (shrunk for 100 yard) but a low shot not called which was 1.2 minutes low and 2 shots high around .7 MOA, one called left (it was) but neither called high.

I guess my point comes down to: Is the Envoy/L39 rifles noted for vertical stringing at short range, much like the SMLE with high velocity variation ammunition? I know it has excellent compensation for the 800 through 1000 yard range, and I gather it does well on the 600 yard line, but not so sure on the shorts.

We do not get any green spot ammo over here, it is hard enough to get Black spot not MG ammo , F4 and C21 regular ball ammo. So I was wondering how well regular commonwealth ball would shoot at short ranges out of Envoy/L39 rifles.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

We do not get any green spot ammo over here, it is hard enough to get Black spot not MG ammo , F4 and C21 regular ball ammo. So I was wondering how well regular commonwealth ball would shoot at short ranges out of Envoy/L39 rifles.

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At the very real risk of going off at a tangent I spent a morning in the NRA museum about 3 years ago doing some research and got into conversation with Ted Molyneux the curator.
Ted shot for GB many years ago and was active in the days when 7.62mm had just taken over from .303, he recalled a visit some friends of his did to Norway and the Raufoss factory where they were given a complimentary box of 7,62mm x 51 to try at Bisley.
Ted said that until they tried it nobody had realised just how bad some of the RG was!

Some more reading here https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=34637

According to the 1976 snipers manual a 75mm (3”) group or better should be achieved with a 5 round group at 100m.

Hmm, so a 3.3" Vertical by 1.7" (ignoring called shot out to the left) is in order with expectations as a 10 shot group should be around 1.16 times larger than a 5 shot group.

Have to take some more groups with various UK ammunition to get a better feel.

Real issue is we cannot get any of the better lots of commonwealth ammunition here in the states. We can get very good lots of German/Austrian surplus ball from the late 1970s to mid 1990s.

That said the envoy has a very nice feel to it. One of the nicest Enfield rifles to shot on the range from a sling.

Fred

Remember that the target dimensions this ammunition was designed to hit are shown below:
1972 short range target dimensions
200x 3” (V-Bull) 4.5” (Bull) 9” (Inner) 14” (Magpie & Aiming Mark) 24” (Outer)
300x 4.5” (V-Bull) 6.75” (Bull) 13.5” (Inner) 21” (Magpie & Aiming Mark) 36” (Outer)
500x 8” (V-Bull) 12” (Bull) 27” (Inner) 36” (Magpie & Aiming Mark) 72” (Outer)
600x 10” (V-Bull) 15” (Bull) 27” (Inner) 36” (Magpie & Aiming Mark) 72” (Outer)

(From the book target rifle shooting by major e.g.b Reynolds and Robin Fulton)

Took the Envoy out again last Friday afternoon. Fired 10 rounds of ex-New Zealand stock MEN 85 ammunition out of it. Nice circular 1.3 inch group at 100 yards.

Have stocks now of RG88 Black sport, Australian F4 ammo and IVI 68 C21 ball, Hintenberger 77 dated ball and DAG 95 dated ball. Will be interesting to see how all the ammo stacks up.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

Have stocks now of RG88 Black sport, Australian F4 ammo and IVI 68 C21 ball, Hintenberger 77 dated ball and DAG 95 dated ball. Will be interesting to see how all the ammo stacks up.

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I reckon it will stack up better if you keep it in its cartons - loose rounds tend to roll about too much for reliable stacking.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

I reckon it will stack up better if you keep it in its cartons - loose rounds tend to roll about too much for reliable stacking.

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:rofl:

I am with you on that, as a foreign member of the "Royal Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things" (Wembly chapter), I am well aware of the advantage use that may be made of cartons in stacking ball ammunition. Indeed the very notion of stacking cylindrical ammunition components without the use of cartons or brass monkeys is a topic of some debate as noted in the 23rd symposium of the "1967 Royal Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things proceedings" volume 2, section 4, pages 117 to 119 inclusive".

It is a rare but welcome interlude to come across another member of the society on a website such as this. Good show, what.