Information on No 4 Mk 1* in NZ Service

G'Day All,

I'm hoping that I might be able to extract some detailed knowledge from the wider, knowledgeable community about the No 4 Rifle in Kiwi service.

Of recent times, we in Australia have been fortunate to access a few "new" No 4 Mk 1*s from the Kiwis. Now, you'd be aware that Australia did not issue the No 4 Rifle during or after WW2, in any numbers. But we did have a small shipment, that was diverted and rescued from Japanese capture and we used these sparingly.

My interest is the No 4 in NZ based service. Like you, I've got a copy of Ian Skennerton's bible, so we can move beyond that with your additional knowledge, I trust.

I'd like to know a little more about the receipt of No 4s from Long Branch and Savage and their storage and use at home in NZ. This is where these "new" rifles seem to emerge from.

I'm keen to find out whether these rifles had the Mk 2 (300/600yd) sight replaced with Mk 1 ('Singer') Mk 3 (the problematic one...) or Mk 4 rear sight leaf?

Please do let me (and everyone else!) in on your knowledge, I'm very curious.

Thank you in advance.

Well the basic story is the NZ Longbranch and Savage rifles were supplied in or around 1946/7, out of commonwealth stocks stored in Italy. They were part of the post was division of surplus military material, in lieu of actually payment of specie. The quantity supplied was in the 45~48,000 range. They became the post war issue rifle of NZ, and remained so until the replacement by Lithgow made L1A1 rifles circa 1962.

The disposition was as follows:

1) Quantities sold to Century arms circa 1965/66, which is where the ones in the US of A come from, though these are always Longbranch made rifles, at the time Savages were not allowed for import due to a 1959 act.

2) Sold to NZ citizens for marksmanship use and other purposes (hunting) up to around 1978.

In NZ Full bore competition the No4 was the rifle from around 1948 (once good target sights became available in quantity) to 1968/69, when the 7.62 NATO round took over. NZ made some of the most accurate non-corrosive MK VII ammunition in the 1958/59 time period and it sort of set a standard for competition in the 1965 to 1969 time period, at least in Commonwealth matches shot in NZ. Indeed the visiting UK team in 1968 bought quite a quantity to take back home.

I am sure I have a lot more in notes, but that is what I recall off the top of my head.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frederick303

I am sure I have a lot more in notes, but that is what I recall off the top of my head.

---

G'Day Frederick303, this is an excellent piece, thank you for the time and knowledge sharing. Just the type of info I was hoping for.

NZ also added an individual census number to each rifle along with the 'NZ' stamp.

Something NZ did from the 1850's
(originally applied to Snider's I believe) to 1959.

I don't know if this was added to the rifles that remained in store, or only the issued examples though.

I was in NZ as an Armourer, conveniently based at the two BIG Ordnance depots of Sylvia Park and where the small arms were stored, at Ngaruawahia. According to the Ordnance census records, the NZ rifles came over during the war and were NZ stamped when issued out from Ordnance to the units*. So if it's NZ marked, it WAS issued. The NZ Govt were disposing of large amounts of No4's (and No1's) during the late 60's, during my time there. As I have said many times on the forum, there were still brand new crated/sealed boxes of new No4's, still with the serial numbers identified on the ends of the boxes where they'd been stored since the war. When the crates were opened (supervised by S/Sgt Denny Phillips and another who's name I forget for the moment), they were simply crates of totally rusted out, cracked, bulging rust fit for scrap and in some cases, not even recognisable as No4's

*NZ Sterlings were marked NZ before dispatch from Sterling by S/Sgt Annandale who went to inspect them prior to acceptance

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

brand new crated/sealed boxes of new No4's, still with the serial numbers identified on the ends of the boxes where they'd been stored since the war. When the crates were opened (supervised by S/Sgt Denny Phillips and another who's name I forget for the moment), they were simply crates of totally rusted out, cracked, bulging rust fit for scrap and in some cases, not even recognisable as No4's

---

They must have been opened and degreased for use and then repacked? Or were they sent as a short term storage thing out of grease? Never heard of rifles not being prepared for shipping first...too bad...

I hope it can serve:

NEW ZEALAND ARMS REGISTER: NZAR # 25 No 4 Mk I & Mk I* (Abridged some images removed)

It's certainly odd, as you say Jim, the rifles must have surely been swimming in cosmoline before being sealed up in crates.

We can only hypothesize that the rifles were accidentally not inhibited from the factory (massive gaff there) or withdrawn from store, cleaned, repackaged and stored in a very damp humid place for many years.... An equally massive gaff with bells and whistles on....

Interesting info on the NZ marked L2A3's Peter, S/Sgt Annandale must have marked and numbered some of the final pieces.

Only a handful of the 59 dated Lithgow L1A1's from the first NZ consignment were so marked before the process was discontinued.

Have you ever heard of deck cargo? Have you ever seen deck cargo from across the Pacific? Grease and whatever else doesn't do much especially when they are left crated. Annanuvverfing. I was actually there......... Another small point is that while I was there I never saw a Mk1/2 or 1/3or 2. I asked our ordnance to supply the drawings for the conversion and still have them, copied and sent to me at Waiouru. The trouble is that I've had such a sheltered life. I need to get about a bit..............

Just read BAR's reply and my response and it sounded as if I came across as a bit dismissive. Not the case, just a bit thoughtless in my reply. Sorry BAR and Clarkie.......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Have you ever heard of deck cargo?

---

Never thought of that. Too bad at any rate...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Have you ever heard of deck cargo? Have you ever seen deck cargo from across the Pacific? Grease and whatever else doesn't do much especially when they are left crated. Annanuvverfing. I was actually there......... Another small point is that while I was there I never saw a Mk1/2 or 1/3or 2. I asked our ordnance to supply the drawings for the conversion and still have them, copied and sent to me at Waiouru. The trouble is that I've had such a sheltered life. I need to get about a bit..............

Just read BAR's reply and my response and it sounded as if I came across as a bit dismissive. Not the case, just a bit thoughtless in my reply. Sorry BAR and Clarkie.......

---

Nothing to apologise for Peter, always interesting stuff...

Gentlemen,

Thank you all. I'll avoid going sequentially through the list, but I am very appreciative for each and every personal contribution.

Peter, you certainly got around in the 60's! Australia and NZ. I guess that should provide some with a reference why your views and prolific articles are the prime references for matters Lee Enfield.

It's interesting to note the several "new" and "unfired (love that term)" rifles floating around in OZ of recent times, they are all marked with the NZ inventory numbers (Apparently Kiwis can't count high enough to use the Factory applied hundred thousand number formats! ;))

So the "unfired" and more importantly "unissued" statement is a myth, based on Peter's actual observations. This might upset a few motivated vendors seeking 'top dollar' on their rifles.

Now, an open question, does anyone have any thoughts on the rear sight model that NZ Army used? Was there a pattern of replacements from the Mk 2 (3/600 flip) to the Mk 3 or Mk 4? Or, even the Mk 1 at later stages? Or was it very much up to Unit armourers in the LAD that got around to improving rifles as they flowed through the workshop?

I'm not caught up in the collector rigidity, just interested to learn what you possibly already know.

Again, grateful for your contribution and hope that a few others are getting same value out of the sharing of knowledge. :thup:

I have heard some No4s were unpacked from the crates, inspected & stamped with N^Z & a inventory number & repacked & from what i have seen & heard (some people buying whole crates when surplussed out) this did indeed happen.

I can tell you where I was and what I actually saw. The factory crated rifles we had - and there were a large amount of crates) were stacked upright in the crates 10 or so per side, butt to bottom, next one butt to top and so on so the crates were fairly slim to save space. They were recorded on the VERY attractive and tall Sue Munns, the Inventory clerks inventory scales by serial number which was (as I remember it) stenciled on the crate end in black. TOTALLY illegible on these scrap rifles. If anyone wants to look for where the rusted out remains were dumped, then look across the road from where the old vehicle and armourers workshop was (the road ran through the huge Ordnance complex and past the old ammunition silos on towards Hamilton... until it was bypassed in the early 60's) to where the old wooden test range hut was situated. That was used as the general tip site! If the old range hut is still standing, the concrete block in the middle was where the Enfield Rest was mounted and the holes in the old wooden door were made by me with a Thompson gun

The only person I actually KNOW that purchased a brand new, unused No4 rifle direct from Ordnance was my old friend, RNZEME Major KimW who was on this site until he passed away a few years ago. That's really all I know about NZ No4 rifles

Just looked at the group photo and names. The other bloke with me and Denny Phillips who went to de-crate the No4's for disposal was Frank Seeley and I think that Frank was an ex RNZAF Armourer who worked on Mosquitos and Sunderlands

Added as a post scrip: We also had about 8 or so L2A1 rifles in the workshop from Papakura that had been there for a few months awaiting spares from Oz. I cannibalised one or two to complete two of the others but the specialised L2 spares in NZ were like rocking horse manure. As we had loads of unused L2's in Malaya that we never used as we had L4 and 303 Brens I just wrote to and asked the 4-RAR armourers if they'd send the necessary L2 bits over......, bipod bits, barrels and back sight parts. Lo and behold a few weeks later they arrived. Same story with Bren locking shoulder screws for some strange reason............ I mean, how many million did they need.

Did a few tours there, good times

Looks like "Sylvia Park" is a shopping centre nowadays. :yikes:

Sylvia Park | Auckland - YouTube

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I can tell you where I was and what I actually saw. The factory crated rifles we had - and there were a large amount of crates) were stacked upright in the crates 10 or so per side, butt to bottom, next one butt to top and so on so the crates were fairly slim to save space. They were recorded on the VERY attractive and tall Sue Munns, the Inventory clerks inventory scales by serial number which was (as I remember it) stenciled on the crate end in black. TOTALLY illegible on these scrap rifles. If anyone wants to look for where the rusted out remains were dumped, then look across the road from where the old vehicle and armourers workshop was (the road ran through the huge Ordnance complex and past the old ammunition silos on towards Hamilton... until it was bypassed in the early 60's) to where the old wooden test range hut was situated. That was used as the general tip site! If the old range hut is still standing, the concrete block in the middle was where the Enfield Rest was mounted and the holes in the old wooden door were made by me with a Thompson gun

The only person I actually KNOW that purchased a brand new, unused No4 rifle direct from Ordnance was my old friend, RNZEME Major KimW who was on this site until he passed away a few years ago. That's really all I know about NZ No4 rifles

Just looked at the group photo and names. The other bloke with me and Denny Phillips who went to de-crate the No4's for disposal was Frank Seeley and I think that Frank was an ex RNZAF Armourer who worked on Mosquitos and Sunderlands

Added as a post scrip: We also had about 8 or so L2A1 rifles in the workshop from Papakura that had been there for a few months awaiting spares from Oz. I cannibalised one or two to complete two of the others but the specialised L2 spares in NZ were like rocking horse manure. As we had loads of unused L2's in Malaya that we never used as we had L4 and 303 Brens I just wrote to and asked the 4-RAR armourers if they'd send the necessary L2 bits over......, bipod bits, barrels and back sight parts. Lo and behold a few weeks later they arrived. Same story with Bren locking shoulder screws for some strange reason............ I mean, how many million did they need.

Did a few tours there, good times

---

I often wonder were my ex NZ L2A1 came from Peter.

Considering NZ only had 300 or so to start with.

It's the only full Aus/NZ spec example I have ever seen, or heard of in the UK, (mine was NZ contract).

The only other example I have seen and examined, is in Warminster.
Love to know that one's story.

The NZ L2 at Warminster and a Steyer-Aug were exchanged for an L42 and CES and a couple of SA80's. As a matter of interest, the L42 we gave them was the second to last L42 to be withdrawn from UK service. It was 'stolen' from display at Waiouru and a fake left in its place. We kept the last one. Next question.....

Interesting stuff Peter, looks like the only two ex NZ L2's in the UK (possibly in the northern hemisphere) have by coincidence, ended up 30 miles apart!
Funny old world....

I would assume these government to government museum 'swaps' go via diplomatic baggage?

I wonder how long it will be before even this perfectly innocent and honourable study related exhibit swapping is kiboshed by international arms control regulations....

Here's my ex NZ L2A1 (its ex Malay contract brother behind), with it rare as hens teeth, top cover mounted backsight and TMH backsight blanking plate.

S/N AD65270 ( for the train spotters among us) I know I'm one!

Sorry to go off thread, on one of our regular tangents!

I wouldn't care to elaborate on how government to government or Army or Army transactions take place........ The L2's were really just heavy rifles as far as we were concerned especially those Oz and NZ Infantry I was with at the time - after being brought up on Brens and L4's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I can tell you where I was and what I actually saw. The factory crated rifles we had - and there were a large amount of crates) were stacked upright in the crates 10 or so per side, butt to bottom, next one butt to top and so on so the crates were fairly slim to save space. They were recorded on the VERY attractive and tall Sue Munns, the Inventory clerks inventory scales by serial number which was (as I remember it) stenciled on the crate end in black. TOTALLY illegible on these scrap rifles. If anyone wants to look for where the rusted out remains were dumped, then look across the road from where the old vehicle and armourers workshop was (the road ran through the huge Ordnance complex and past the old ammunition silos on towards Hamilton... until it was bypassed in the early 60's) to where the old wooden test range hut was situated. That was used as the general tip site! If the old range hut is still standing, the concrete block in the middle was where the Enfield Rest was mounted and the holes in the old wooden door were made by me with a Thompson gun

The only person I actually KNOW that purchased a brand new, unused No4 rifle direct from Ordnance was my old friend, RNZEME Major KimW who was on this site until he passed away a few years ago. That's really all I know about NZ No4 rifles

Just looked at the group photo and names. The other bloke with me and Denny Phillips who went to de-crate the No4's for disposal was Frank Seeley and I think that Frank was an ex RNZAF Armourer who worked on Mosquitos and Sunderlands

Added as a post scrip: We also had about 8 or so L2A1 rifles in the workshop from Papakura that had been there for a few months awaiting spares from Oz. I cannibalised one or two to complete two of the others but the specialised L2 spares in NZ were like rocking horse manure. As we had loads of unused L2's in Malaya that we never used as we had L4 and 303 Brens I just wrote to and asked the 4-RAR armourers if they'd send the necessary L2 bits over......, bipod bits, barrels and back sight parts. Lo and behold a few weeks later they arrived. Same story with Bren locking shoulder screws for some strange reason............ I mean, how many million did they need.

Did a few tours there, good times

---

Not doubting you Peter, just passing on info i have picked up, the NZ markings on No4s vary so obviously different areas had different markings requirements, so what happened where you were is what happened where you were.

A large quantity of No4 rifles were sold by tender to the NZ dealers in the late 1960's. In 1969 I was working as the gunsmith for W H TIsdall Ltd in Christchurch and we had several hundred Long Branch No4's in cases of 10, brand new but all stamped N^Z on the butt. These were all two groovers with L back sights. A standard 'as issued' rifle was NZ$29.95 and $36.95 sporterised. I would take a case of rifle home every Friday and sporterise them over the weekend for $3.50 each. That was a good boost to the wages of a young married man on $65 per week!

It was interesting to see Jock Annandale's name mentioned by Mr Clark as I knew him quite well when he was the Senior Armourer at Burnham Camp.

I was hoping that you'd come in Woody. Jock was my boss at the Northern District Ord Depot when I had to give them brief tech details of the first GPMG's that had come into NZ. I'm sure that me and the other army blokes went to Burnham and re-kitted with the basics after being cleared at the CCS/admin after the Wahine thing. There will be variations in the NZ markings because they were put on at the various Ord Depots and at different times and according to a master list held at ??? I never understood why either, but there you go. Especially if you were serving in places like Korea or UN/Cyprus or Malaya with pooled Ord resources when your units got what they were issued with! In Malaya there was a mix of AD, AD/NZ, UB and UE and it all used to come from Johore Bahru, even the Malay Army stuff went through our workshops initially.

In respect of Clarkies Malay Army rifle, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a pooled Ordnance rifle that was issued out, left stuck in an RNZIR armoury somewhere in Malaya or Singapore (why use an L2 if you've got L4's to play with?) and when the whole control situation handed back to the Malay Army/Police, the NZ Army took back its allocation. Said several times but we had a VERY nice Ordnance Corps WO1 at 40 Base workshop and in the school holidays he would occasionally bring his 14 or 15 year old son into work, by arrangement, when we were range testing. He was very good and has probably fired more ammo and cleaned through more rifles, sub machine guns and Brens than every other civvy in the world!!!!!! His mum used to bring us young Aust/NZ and pommy Armourers (there's be about 4 of us) some fresh home made sarnies and orange juice. His mum was probably pulling her hair out at the state of his oily smelly clothes until we gave him some JG's (jungle greens) to change into. No ear boxes then of course so he's probably as deaf as a post now. Nice sister too called Christine. I took her out a few times and wrote to her when I was back '...up country' I wanted to go down and see her one weekend so........... That's another story for another day

Some NZ, Aust and UK ammo techs (you know Wayne Le Gros Woody) were in our accommodation to. They were clearing out/destroying the old Japanese ammo bunkers in Singapore and Penang and if I remember, lifting a submarine alongside the dock at Palau Brani where the RAASC/RCT DUKWS were based in order to get at the live torpedos on board

Do you think that we've gone off thread enough for today?

Saw hundreds of No4 's boxed at Seletar in Singapore in 1973 if that helps.
NZ were in charge of the camp in those days, not sure why as it was always an RAF camp.

I was just a British soldier on a jungle warfare course at Pulada, sent to try and get a GPMG fixed!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I was hoping that you'd come in Woody. Jock was my boss at the Northern District Ord Depot when I had to give them brief tech details of the first GPMG's that had come into NZ. I'm sure that me and the other army blokes went to Burnham and re-kitted with the basics after being cleared at the CCS/admin after the Wahine thing. There will be variations in the NZ markings because they were put on at the various Ord Depots and at different times and according to a master list held at ??? I never understood why either, but there you go. Especially if you were serving in places like Korea or UN/Cyprus or Malaya with pooled Ord resources when your units got what they were issued with! In Malaya there was a mix of AD, AD/NZ, UB and UE and it all used to come from Johore Bahru, even the Malay Army stuff went through our workshops initially.

In respect of Clarkies Malay Army rifle, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a pooled Ordnance rifle that was issued out, left stuck in an RNZIR armoury somewhere in Malaya or Singapore (why use an L2 if you've got L4's to play with?) and when the whole control situation handed back to the Malay Army/Police, the NZ Army took back its allocation. Said several times but we had a VERY nice Ordnance Corps WO1 at 40 Base workshop and in the school holidays he would occasionally bring his 14 or 15 year old son into work, by arrangement, when we were range testing. He was very good and has probably fired more ammo and cleaned through more rifles, sub machine guns and Brens than every other civvy in the world!!!!!! His mum used to bring us young Aust/NZ and pommy Armourers (there's be about 4 of us) some fresh home made sarnies and orange juice. His mum was probably pulling her hair out at the state of his oily smelly clothes until we gave him some JG's (jungle greens) to change into. No ear boxes then of course so he's probably as deaf as a post now. Nice sister too called Christine. I took her out a few times and wrote to her when I was back '...up country' I wanted to go down and see her one weekend so........... That's another story for another day

Some NZ, Aust and UK ammo techs (you know Wayne Le Gros Woody) were in our accommodation to. They were clearing out/destroying the old Japanese ammo bunkers in Singapore and Penang and if I remember, lifting a submarine alongside the dock at Palau Brani where the RAASC/RCT DUKWS were based in order to get at the live torpedos on board

Do you think that we've gone off thread enough for today?

---

All absolutely fascinating info Peter/ Woodsey and Gil (adds to the group information), re our traditional habbit of going off piste, I think we're gone so far off course on this occasion, were beyond the gravitational influence of the sun!

Woodsy however did mention the Wartime standard 'L' backsight on the stored NZ No4's, so an answer was provided, among a wealth of other related NZ info.

Re Peters mixed ordnance hypothesis as to how my NZ L2 found itself in the UK, it's certainly an idea I hadn't considered.

Certainly, most of the deactivated L2A1's that came onto the UK market from the 90's to 2010 'ish' we're all Malay contract, with a few Singapore Police examples thrown in.

Being the total inch pattern anorak that I am, I was gutted to find this unique NZ example come up for private sale on a UK sales Portal called Milweb, only to find I missed the boat...

It resurfaced with a UK militaria dealer with the unique top cover and blanking plate missing!

They had been replaced by standard units and the original parts sold separately.

I did a deal for the lot, restored her and put her back together again ... A costly experience, but I am so glad I did it now.

Someone told me that the L2 backsights and covers all came from Canada and Lithgow didn't tool up for them. They were always a bit flimsy and ALWAYS in short supply (or dues-out in armourer speak) and that's why I got some from from 4RAR in Malaya