Pattern 44 Webbing

I have recently been purchasing a few bits of Pattern 44 webbing for my collection and it does seem less common on the surplus market than Pattern 37 even though Pattern 44 was in service over a relative large time frame. Apart from basic pouches, one item of Pattern 44 kit that I have recently purchased is the "small pack" (small rucksack). When it arrived I was amazed at just how small the Pattern 44 pack actually is. Seen below, it seems to bring a whole new meaning to the word "small"; my initial reaction was that it's "toy-town" in size. I realise that Pattern 44 webbing also had a larger pack available but I don't, currently, have an example in my collection.

Despite it's small size the Patt.44 small pack does have a "waterproof" lining attached to the inside and so I'm thinking that it's quite innovative in that respect.

I am assuming that the "small pack was only intended and used as a "day pack" for short patrols and the large pack for anything else? I have seen it stated that Pattern 44 webbing was a nice and good webbing system to use but I was wondering about the thoughts of people here who may have used Pattern 44 webbing, please?

When would Pattern 44 webbing finally have been retired from UK service, please; I'm guessing mid 1980's?

How much use did Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other Commonwealth countries make of Pattern 44 webbing, please?

Many thanks for any replies and input.

We never used that stuff, thank God...we had our own problems. We used '37 until Korea and then slowly changed to '51...then slowly changed to '64. It took until '82 to get mag pouches for our FNs, then 25 years old and on the way out. Once we all had '82 we started to look at load bearing vests for real, the Israelis had used them for 25 years by then. We adopted the load bearing vest, known as tac vest for general use in about '05...

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

How much use did Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other Commonwealth countries make of Pattern 44 webbing, please?

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Australia went to Korea with '37 Pattern webbing. Enough said.

When we were alongside other troops with better stuff, we commonly 'found' some of their stuff to issue to our Diggers. In New Guinea, the Diggers often found the long Yank gaiters were superior to the crud they had, so they were quickly adopted as "ours" too. In Korea, Malaya and Borneo you'll often see photos of RAR diggers with Brit webbing and kit. The reason was we usually had crap kit and not enough of it, but our mates that invited us to the party usually did and were happy to share.

Our speed of adoption of new and better ideas as approved from the dim dark dungeons of Canberra, (where all our fantastic decisions are made) is neck and neck with the gestation of an African elephant or the blazing pace of an Antarctic glacial slide.

South Africa not at all. We usually had kit suited for the operations we were involved in. Good stuff.

It would be interesting to know what was actually intended to be carried in the Pattern 44 small pack? Just putting a military style jumper into the main compartment and it's 50% filled already.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

small pack

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The '37 small pack was for small items. There was a large pack for your other items and a kit bag for the rest. A small pack is just for socks and small items...toiletries... That was one of the items we hung on to and kept issuing, '37 small pack and the '37 basic pouches.

You filled the small pack with whatever you were told to and needed for the operation plus a pair of dry socks, OG/JG shirt etc, rolled up tight and a spare pair of jungle boots (made by BATA) strapped to the top with a good and yes, it was waterproof, hooded poncho underneath. I have to say that I never ever saw a large pack used or even carried although we had them. I think that we had the large pack because when you arrived the QM issued all your kit as a job-lot inthe large pack. All stuff that you couldn't carry was supplied at AP's or air dropped. We only had 44 patt kit in Malaya and the Far East generally and it was well liked, very light and almost expendable - within reason. Us, the Brits, Kiwis, Malay army and police all had 44 stuff. Our 'skeleton order' of belt pouches and water bottles/holster were always kept assembled and slung over the ends of our beds. I remember that the small pack had a liner but the notion that anything remained dry there was farcical as the monsoons seemed to start at the end of August and stop at the end of the following July. Once the 2hour or so monsoon torrent had passed over, within an hour you were dry again. I should say, sort-of dry because you were always stinking sweaty wet

The 44 Pattern pouches seem like a good, well thought out design when compared to their predecessors. I like the 2 options of height on the closure tabs and I believe that the example seen here is of a later manufacture because it has 2 options of height attachment for fitting to the belt on the rear. This left hand pouch also has a bayonet attachment, similar to what is seen on the 58 Pattern webbing pouch.

The example that I have here appears unissued but the only marking that I can see is "16" on the inside of the pouch. What it means and why there are no other markings I have no idea?

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

"16" on the inside of the pouch

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Inspector's number.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I have to say that I never ever saw a large pack used or even carried although we had them.

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I saw them but wasn't issued. They were a hold over from the past. Only ever heard of the defaulters being issued so they could square them with plywood for evening inspections. Yes, kit lists...usually useless stuff that was hardly usable.

It's been a long time now....., but I don't remember our 44 stuff from the mid to late 60's having two heights to mount on our belts as shown OR the two position closure buckle. Strange! In my time in Malaya we had both 303 and L4 Brens, Sterlings, Mk5 Stens, Owens and F1's plus AR15's and there wasn't a magazine problem with a single position closure even with grenades and smoke. If there WERE two belt heights as shown I only remember the lower height because as I recall, you could rest the Bren on the right pouch when firing from he waist. I expect a webbing fiend will be able to correct me if I'm wrong so feel free

On the subject of webbing a mate of mine at work, said he and his muckers were issued with 58 patt webbing during his basic, didn't sound right to me as it was 10-11 years ago, but we had a look on the net and sure enough it was 58 patt.......

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

issued with 58 patt webbing during his basic

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Well, they'll issue old stuff to be consumed. Doesn't matter what because they'll learn the new stuff at unit. We still issue Chromate green combat clothing to sub units for training purpose to save the CadPat uniforms.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Well, they'll issue old stuff to be consumed.

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Jim, Isn't it because the Q Wallers need something to count? Surely new, shiny, good stuff is more 'fun' counting than the dusty, dirty old stuff... Well so it seemed when I was in...

Present myself to Q Counter: "SGT, may I have...?"

Q SGT "No, because it's the last one and if I issue it to you, some one else will go without..."

Q SGT "No, because we have a stocktake coming up and we need to hold on to some stores to count..."

Q SGT "No, you have one already on your record and the damage to it that I can see in your hand was caused by you, Member to Pay..."

Q SGT "No, these new (things) need the CO's authorisation to issue..."

Or... make up your own. Probably nothing that average Digger hasn't heard... :madsmile:

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Originally Posted by 22SqnRAE

Isn't it because the Q Wallers need something to count?

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Well, the first thing they'll tell you is about them not being able to do their job... We signed contracts for manufacture here that no civilian group would ever sign. It was for production over a protracted period of time with financial penalties on us if we cancelled the contracts before natural expiry. Therefore we end up with several patterns of boots on issue at once. Several minor and a couple of major issues of uniform available...and not to mention the different purse they paid out of. The air force had cadpat uniforms before the Infantry and people tried to say it was different because it had a shade of BLUE in it...no, it was paid out of the air force purse. Ours was empty from buying ammo and cam stick...stuff they didn't need.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It's been a long time now....., but I don't remember our 44 stuff from the mid to late 60's having two heights to mount on our belts as shown OR the two position closure buckle. Strange! In my time in Malaya we had both 303 and L4 Brens, Sterlings, Mk5 Stens, Owens and F1's plus AR15's and there wasn't a magazine problem with a single position closure even with grenades and smoke. If there WERE two belt heights as shown I only remember the lower height because as I recall, you could rest the Bren on the right pouch when firing from he waist. I expect a webbing fiend will be able to correct me if I'm wrong so feel free

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Here are a couple of other variations in 44 Pattern basic pouches that I have, both with single height attachment for belt. The first one (first 3 pics) is dated 1946 and is maker marked with single attachment for belt. The second pouch (last 3 pics) is, I believe, intended for drivers because it just has a webbing loop on the back, presumably, so that it can be swung out of the way when driving. I think this second pouch is dated 1945 but I am not certain because of the way in which the "9" is marked.

Here is my latest addition to my Pattern 44 webbing collection, a binocular case that is a "Sealed Pattern Sample". I assume that these samples were submitted as production samples to the MOD and then held for future reference?

The 44 pattern bino cases were a bit of a joke because they were just too small to fit a pair of No2 binos!!!! Well, you could get them in if the case was wringing wet through (which it often was out there I have to admit!) So binos were kept slung round your neck with an SMG sling with the dog clip part around the centre axis bar and tucked under the cross strap. Yes, we did have the belt type pouch issue one-per-man in the rifle companies. I seem to think that was used a a general carry-all. Others who used this '44 and '37 kit will come on board and tell you that when you're 19 or 20, all as thin as a rake there was only so much you can attach to your belt. 2x water bottles each, machette/parang/gollock, pouches, pistol, kitchen sink, fondu set........, you know the sort of thing.

Malaya was the first time I'd ever seen rifles slung muzzle down...., it was the norm.... everyone did it that way..., the Malay Army our Gurkhas, UK Infantry until they left....... that you just got used to although in Australia during work-up training and in Malaya and SVN we didn't have top sling swivels so we couldn't sling our rifles up or down anyway!

But I digress. The really good things were the jungle boots we used on ops and military training days. But alas, no good further up country when the ground was spiked

"...Australia went to Korea..." Pretty much everybody went to Korea using the same kit with which they went to Normandy. Then add in the reluctance of governments(ours in particular) to spend the money on new kit.
The Pattern 44 kit was supposedly not general issue anyway. Supposedly a “theatre issue”, for units serving in the Far East. It also doubled in the role of a “unit specific” Pattern, being routinely worn by Airborne troops and the Gurkhas, often in temperate zones.

I have these 2 short straps which came with some of the 44 Pattern webbing that I have recently purchased. I am still trying to figure out exactly what they are used for or where they go on 44 Pattern webbing? They may, of-course, be off something else? Is anyone able to clarify what their intended purpose is and if they are 44 Pattern webbing, please?

Many thanks.

They look like a connector strap, a go between others...Peter or someone will be along shortly that used it though.

The initial pattern of ammo pouches were similar to 37 Pattern. In Malaya this style of pouch was not suitable for jungle patrolling So they were adapted by squadies by removing the C clips and reattaching them through the chest strap loop or removing the chest strap loop and reattaching them at the top of the pouch so the belt could pass through them. This was done as it was a better way to mount the pouches further to the side of the body allowing better access to ammo when lying down. Later 2nd pattern pouches had the double "C" clips for either high or low mounting on the belt.
The spike bayonet was carried on the side of the left pouch as was the knife bayonet for the Enfield No. 5 carbine. This was modified by a larger slit so the SLR bayonet could be mounted easier. There is also a bayonet frog which could be used with all the bayonets in current use (there were five in use as of the Malayan Emergency, and the old sword type bayonet if it was ever issued.
The initial rucksack was small, with the two pouches on the side for the mess tin halves. The later 2nd pattern was quite a bit larger. The second pattern of kit was introduced around 1962. There was also a haversack produced which was very popular with troops. Evidently, these were worn until they literally fell apart thus no many were available on the surplus market. The best part of the kit was the new canteen/cup and carrier based on US equipment. The first canteen had a chain attached to the lid, the second used a cord. It was not has hardy as 37 Pattern as the metal fittings had a habit of breaking. I have a fair amount of this set in my collection. You can have items of one colour of Jungle Green, the official name for the colour of the dye. You can have variations in this colour due to manufacturer's differing dye lots and items made of two different colours of webbing.
Be aware, the Indian army or Pakistani army bought a lot of this pattern. You can identify it as the dye is a "pea green" colour and there are no markings on any of the items. Most of the surplus items I have seen are the canteen pouches and ammo pouches.
Regards,
Ian

Welcome to the forum Ian and thank-you for that informative post.