No4 butt srew seized! Tool help...

Hello Milsurps,

I have a No4 and the butt screw is seized.

The butt is slightly loose and when you move the butt if you put your finger on the end of the screw it moves.

The problem is the screw head is rusted and welded to the stock. I have tried a large screwdriver and spanner on it with 2 people. Not even budged a fraction.

I have dumped penetrating fluid in there and left for a few days and it doesnt even really penetrate in its sealed that tight.

I need the correct bracing tool, only i cant source one. Anybody have the dimension of the head and shank in metric.

Or would anybody rent the tool out to me?

Any help appreciated

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

Should also mention the slot is decent and out of all the time we spent on it the screwdriver only slipped once. So at least the slot is decent. Just dont think the screwdriver head is wide enough and not giving enough radial torque. Its 10mm wide, but is a taper head and i read it needs to be a flat parallel blade

Penetrating fluid will only work on a metal bolt seized in a metal 'hole'.
What you have probably done now is actually made the problem worse by giving the wood some more 'liquid; to absorb and expand ever further locking the bolt head in even tighter.

I bought a flat-blade screwdriver with a long hexagonal shank.
I cut off the handle leaving enough of the shank to put a socket on
Extension bar.
Found a socket that fitted - wrapped the butt in cloth and clamped it in a vice.


Long T-Bar ratchet and out it came.



Crack it a bit, then re-tighten, crack it a bit more, re-tighten repeat until it becomes loose.


Addendum - the flat blade was about 11 - 12mm across and fitted perfectly.

Heat

Thanks for the advice, will look at the driver and socket route.

How do i get heat to the head of the bolt without burning the wood too much

The actual butt-bolt is very roughly (I cannot get to my Calipers at the moment)

Shank 12mm diameter,
Head 18mm diameter (so up to an 18mm wide screwdriver will fit)
Slot width 3mm
Slot depth 2mm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

Thanks for the advice, will look at the driver and socket route.

How do i get heat to the head of the bolt without burning the wood too much

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I would try to avoid the heat and go for the 'socket' first.

If the forend is removed you could heat the end of the butt-bolt where it comes thru the butt-socket, but personally I'd be wary of overheating it and the backend of the action before the heat actually got up the bolt to the top of the bolt, as the wood would act as a heat sink.


I had considered suggesting putting a blow torch 'down the butt-bolt hole' to burn off the penetrating fluid and maybe 'scorch the wood a bit', but I think that would be the last resort.


Go for the brute force method.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

I would try to avoid the heat and go for the 'socket' first.

If the forend is removed you could heat the end of the butt-bolt where it comes thru the butt-socket, but personally I'd be wary of overheating it and the backend of the action before the heat actually got up the bolt to the top of the bolt, as the wood would act as a heat sink.


I had considered suggesting putting a blow torch 'down the butt-bolt hole' to burn off the penetrating fluid and maybe 'scorch the wood a bit', but I think that would be the last resort.


Go for the brute force method.

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I agree. Also carefully heat. I use one of my plumbing torches with turbo tip when heating up a screw or bolt to get it to loosen. Usually just enough to break up any rust.

Thats a great amount of information, thank you.

Was thinking as i cant find a screwdriver nice and wide i might precisely gring up a cold chisel to fit as the body will also fit in a socket!

Looking at the picture of the bolt head, my only saving grace is the head depth is actually quite shallow so really is a fairly small section being gripped by the wood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

Looking at the picture of the bolt head, my only saving grace is the head depth is actually quite shallow so really is a fairly small section being gripped by the wood.

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5mm Head depth

Cheers,

Quick question... is the shank of the bolt a tight fit in the stock or is it just the head??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

Cheers,

Quick question... is the shank of the bolt a tight fit in the stock or is it just the head??

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The 'head' sits on a 'ledge', below which should be a metal washer.
The shank is a 'push fit' thru the butt out to the butt socket. (so yes - the shank is also a 'tightish' fit)

Just a thought - you have removed the leather washer / cover from the top of the bolt haven't you ? ( I assume so if you have managed to get a screwdriver into the slot)

Nope, no leather washer. Removed already.

Earlier i was locating the screwdriver and hitting it to try and shock it. Also as the stock is slightly loose i stood it stock down and hit the end of the screw with a parallel punch.

Might just be me but i took a picture of the screw head to show you and it does appear to have a crack around the right edge so it may be freeing up? Gonna wait till i get a satisfactory tool before i try again.

Attachment 102473

FORGET HEAT............... for xxxx sake...... This was an everyday problem with No5's in the far east due to pillocks before-hand not doing what they were instructed to do. Take the bull by the horns. Butt in a vice, spanner on the square shank -o or socket and unscrew it. It WILL come, believe me. When you replace it grease the xhit out of the new bolt and inside the butt and that's the end of the problem for ever more.

Apart from having a better fitting tool Peter that is just what i did.

I could feel the driver twisting, and today i feel like i have pulled the muscles in my chest and arms from using all my strength. Shes in there alright, but im not the kind of person to give up easily. Better tool and try again is all i can do.

This is a familiar situation. The body of the stock bolt will have rusted and attached itself to the hole in the butt. It is not that the metal-to-metal fit is too tight. You need to make up a wide screwdriver and grind the tip so it is 1/10 inch thick and parallel-sided and preferably wide enough to just fit into the butt.
To make up mine I bought a cold chisel which just fits into the butt, and ground the tip to suit. I attached a spanner to the hexagonal shaft to get huge torque.
Others have had success grinding a tip on a cruciform wheel brace for a car.
Be sure the screwdriver tip is parallel sided or the laws of physics mean that as you twist it will exit the slot.
Rob

I have just brought a suitable cold chisel and a replacement bolt and washer.

As soon as it arrives are grind up the chisel and use the screw head as the gauge to ensure i get the perfect fit.

Are keep you all updated on my progress.

Scout sniper,
I noted in a previous post you mentioned your No 4(T) was a deact.
Do you have a Fire Arms Certificate? If not, it sounds to me as if you'd enjoy collecting live historical rifles and shooting them - am I correct?
If so, PM me, I'll outline for you the steps you need to go through. It's not difficult, but it takes about 6 months.
If you already have an FAC, ignore this!
Rob

Thanks for the offer, but ive lost interest in shooting these days and prefer collecting.

Success!!

I have to admit i was beginning to think it wasnt going to break free.

After not being able to find a tool i was happy with, and giving up on the cold chisel idea as once ground up and fitted, still wanted to move at angles when torque was applied. I already had one slip and couldnt afford to risk rounding it off i needed a tool i could trust.

After lots of digging i found "Drag link sockets" basically giant hollow ground flat blade screwdrivers for socket sets. Although hollow ground these have a parallel section where they enter the slot. I found an old Snap-On one for sale for £8, its 17.5mm wide so pretty much perfect and was for a 3/8 set. It required a long extension and 2 small extensions to reach down into the abyss.
I had to extend the rachet handle with a pipe for extra leverage.

The extension bars although look flimsy the knuckle joints actually acted as supports to keep it centred through the butt just like the brass cotton reel does on the genuine bit tool.

Once clamped it still took a fair bit of force and was holding on till the bitter end. The screw was in there solid and if you look at the pictures of the head it was even more rusty than it looked from above and im glad i decided to replaced it.
The spring washer was also a pain to get out as it didnt come out with the screw and need persuading with a parallel punch.

The action can now have the pads fitted...

When rebuilding i will pack it full of grease to stop this from happening again, although it looked like it hadnt been removed since being built in 1943.

Thanks for everybody's input and help.

Attachment 102621Attachment 102622Attachment 102623Attachment 102624Attachment 102625

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

I have to admit i was beginning to think it wasnt going to break free.

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Well done - it just needed the right tool for the job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Well done - it just needed the right tool for the job.

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And persistence! I refused to give up...

I saw one of these tools, and the brace for it, at the RAF club's boot sale in July - but didn't buy it, as I already had one. No doubt somebody else did ...

How much was it up for out of curiosity?

I did get a PM on here, offering me one! I replied but that was the last i heard from him??

I didn't ask them, but I doubt it would have been very much.
When rifles have been through a river crossing it's hard to dry out areas like this.

Attachment 102671

Nigels photo shows the commercial 'de-luxe' version of the BRACES, hand, Armourers. The real McCoy were a tad more agricultural!!! No fancy wood top bit to push on....., it was just a round slightly dished plate. No fancy round wooden grip part either. You just gripped the steel and twisted it. With this tool and the various assorted 'bits' we had that went with the brace, you could enough leverage onto pretty much anything. Enough to stop the rotation of the earth I'd say

Thanks for the picture Nigel, although a little late to the game as i no longer required this. I ended up sourcing other tools and found a solid and reliable solution..

Im surprised to see the end of the tool tapers? Especially after everybody stressing the importance of the tool head having parallel faces.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

it was just a round slightly dished plate.

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But that was supposed to bear against your shoulder or upper chest wasn't it? Thus the saddle affair. The one pictured resembles the user we had on the farm when I was young...was for use originally by the men when they built barns and such.

You're right BAR, it was meant to bear the weight of your shoulder or chest. The same tool had loads of uses on the Bren and BESA too.. Buffer nut, pistol grip, No1 and 2 pistol chamber scrubber etc etc. I've still got one. Our brace was a one-size-fits-all, unlike the commercial version with an adjustable 4-jaw drill chuck for square shanked wood drills

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

the commercial version with an adjustable 4-jaw drill chuck for square shanked wood drills

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I had forgotten that part...haven't seen that one in...45 years or so.

We still use those in the industry for framing up and boring wood utility poles. They're a whole lot easier to carry in than a gas drill or having to rely on battery powered cordless drills for when it counts sometimes. Boring bits carefully kept in an oiled tool cloth and sent up in a nose bag never tossed about or thrown. When I started to apprentice they were the norm. Break one of those out now and the grunts will start to look out their phone or need an energy drink real quick.

I also made a long bit up for drilling deep holes in half stocked muzzle-loading rifles. A brace is better than a drill motor to avoid splits or holes that wander off center when driven to quickly. Haven't used it for a while though. A socket brace is good for some things. Still keep one for some things and pretty handy sometimes, surprised to see them being discussed here.

So i finally cleaned the butt stock out, took a hell of a lot of kitchen towel and i kept cleaning till it came out spotless.

As the wood was incredibly dry inside i gave it all a once with boiled linseed oil which is soaked right up.

All nice and tidy ready for the new leather washer, pull through and oil bottle.

I have a new screw, washer and spring washer. Just dropped it inside for a quick check to make sure it fits ok. Nice and snug. I'm so happy with the results i have done a before and after picture.

The screw has again been removed until i can source sum XG-279 grease to coat it all with.

Attachment 102690

Fortunately there are large quantities of NOS stock bolts still on the market - they must have over-ordered. Not the sort of thing you wear out.

From what i have found, most parts are "Ten a penny"

Although i can't for the life of me find a magazine follower for a Long Branch magazine. I believe it should have a circle with a B inside it.

The oil bottle hole (I was gunna say butt bolt hole but thats a bit well off?:eek:) brass guide is not often seen I brought one years ago I have a commercial 4 jaw in the shed but thankfully I am blessed with gorilla hands so can get them without the brace just a large square shanked screwdriver suitably ground and if they are really tight I add a spanner to fit the shank and there ya go........
Good persistence Scout got there in the end........:thup:.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

you have removed the leather washer

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Having never tore down one of these rifles I have to ask what is the leather washer for? is it to keep the oiler from hitting the bolthead? and Did the come on all of the Enfield variants including the Indian versions?

Thanks, Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by usabaker

what is the leather washer for

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To keep things from rattling and being noisy...I think. Peter...?

My 2c worth:

The original oil bottles were robust little brass numbers. The rear of the storage hole is nicely padded by the correctly-wound pull-through.

The leather washer was probably to mute the impact of brass on steel in delicate situations.

Probably also helped reduce cracking of the later "plastic" / Bakelite? ones

Quote:

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Originally Posted by usabaker

Having never tore down one of these rifles I have to ask what is the leather washer for? is it to keep the oiler from hitting the bolthead? and Did the come on all of the Enfield variants including the Indian versions?

Thanks, Bill

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Bill,

Precisely. Leather washer stopped the brass oil bottle form rattling and making unwanted noise and damaging the brass bottle.

It works well to stop rattling, but removing it can be a pain.

There is an armourers tool designed specifically for the removal of the leather stock wad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

It works well to stop rattling, but removing it can be a pain.

There is an armourers tool designed specifically for the removal of the leather stock wad.

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Or, a wire coathanger with a small hook bent into the end.

Or that... haha...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 22SqnRAE

Leather washer stopped the brass oil bottle form rattling and making unwanted noise

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That makes sense, I guess its something I better remember. Thank you

---------- Post added at 06:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 AM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Or, a wire coathanger with a small hook bent into the end.

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? extractor?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by usabaker

That makes sense, I guess its something I better remember. Thank you

---------- Post added at 06:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 AM ----------



? extractor?

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The leather washer has a hole in the centre (like any good washer), put a small "L" bend (slightly 'over' an L) in the end of a wire coat hanger and you can hook the washer out as 'easy as you like'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by usabaker

I guess its something I better remember.

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Well, I doubt we're actually going to take these patrolling again...I don't even keep things in the butt trap anymore. My military stuff is empty...keep them aside. Except my Krag wiping rod, had to stay with the oiler in the butt for safe keeping.

Sum people like to keep a modified oil bottle in the butt. The bottle has the spoon removed and a burst case extractor fits perfectly inside wrapped with a small piece of pull through cloth. A spare extractor, spring and screw also for good measure.

Can save a days shooting and never gets forgotten.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

The bottle has the spoon removed and a burst case extractor fits perfectly inside wrapped with a small piece of pull through cloth. A spare extractor, spring and screw also for good measure.

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For .303? I guess that would be good...never thought of that, always used a cartridge to extract a separated case.

Yup the Enfield. 303...

Attachment 102844

Quick question...?

So when the butt stock is screwed up tight there is still slight rotation of the stock in the socket. What would be the recommended path of repair. Or suitable packing material to shim it in place?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

So when the butt stock is screwed up tight there is still slight rotation of the stock in the socket. What would be the recommended path of repair. Or suitable packing material to shim it in place?

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SS, the trick is, naturally, to remove the slack (tolerance) in the timber/steel fitting. The butt should be a near on interference fit into the socket. It should require a little 'persuasion' to bottom out and seat. If you can slip it on easily and still fell rotation al movement when its seated, without the bolt, stock, then you're too loose. If you tighten and drive the bolt, stock home to the limit of projection through the socket and [I]still[I] have rotation, then, Sir, you've got a problem.

The No 1 Mk 1 way to take up slack was with brown paper.

You can choose your shim material, but I'd be suggesting a trial of good quality photocopy paper (around 80 grammes per square metre or 0.26 oz per sq foot) in single, continuous strips that complete the circumference of the butt socket chamfer. If one sheet isn't enough, try two. Iteratively until you're happy that the butt is firmly wedged in the socket and won't move.

Paper, surprisingly, is the same material as the butt - wood. So any oils that seep in won't destroy it quickly.

There's one option for you to consider.

All the best.

Thank you, was thinking brown paper but wasn't sure.

Are have a play around and report back on my success when i fully assemble in the next few weeks.

How available is a regular 12", slot, screw driver? That's all I've ever used. Helps if it has a hexagonal shaft.

I tried that, if you read back you will see i already tried screwdriver with spanner on shaft.

Will be OK to release a normal bolt but this was welded home.

Normal screwdriver heads aren't really wide enough. The screw slot is 18mm wide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

if you read back

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He doesn't, he just reads the OP question and hits reply. Never mind.

So, the butt still wobbles, not surprising as it did and that was where we started... That's why when I first read this, I'd have cut the butt at the small with a hacksaw, right through the bolt and got new butt and bolt. Yes, maybe hard to match, maybe markings are there...so this is where we are. You aren't going to be able to tighten it up, you have to do something like post 50 suggests. Not really any choice...

Thats ok, i am happy to shim it... No way im getting rid of the nice tiger strip walnut. Too much character.

Instead of paper to pack out a loose fitting butt, better to use a strip of oil resistant gasket material. We actually used the material used for cutting stencils. Some of you might have noticed it under handguard bands etc. A pale yellow-brown thick oil resistant card

Brilliant Peter!!

Never thought of that, i guess over time oil will make paper deteriorate and become loose again. This is a great solution.

Just brought a pack, has 0.1mm to 1.2mm!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

No way im getting rid of the nice tiger strip walnut.

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That's why I didn't say it then. I figured you'd not hear that...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

A pale yellow-brown thick oil resistant card

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scout Sniper

Just brought a pack, has 0.1mm to 1.2mm!

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But WHAT is it exactly? Gasket paper? Auto parts store stuff?

Paper or Stencil paper type stuff. I've seen these on firearms (not Enfields, I have no experience with them). I 've also seen cork I think my preference is the brass shim stock

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Originally Posted by usabaker

Stencil paper

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I had to make stencils once for a quartermaster, one of my first jobs in the army as a young soldier. That's the material I had pictured too...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I had to make stencils once for a quartermaster, one of my first jobs in the army as a young soldier.

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I had to make stencils to put my name on my underwear (and other items) while standing naked in front of a table on 0-1 day in basic training.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

But WHAT is it exactly? Gasket paper? Auto parts store stuff?

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Well i went for gasket paper, auto parts, model steam engine stuff. Comes in lots of thickness and oil resistant.