I'm hoping the collective brain can help identify these Uniforms.
This trio are from the French side of my wifes family.
Attachment 129063
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I'm hoping the collective brain can help identify these Uniforms.
This trio are from the French side of my wifes family.
Attachment 129063
Muffett,
The two ladies uniforms are clearly UK ATS uniforms. The women's branch of the army was called the Auxiliary Territorial Service, or ATS. Free French badged.
It was formed in 1938 and after one year 17,000 women volunteers had joined up.
This number grew to over 200,000 by the end of 1943.
The new recruits were sent to army camps for their basic training. Here they slept in huts, learnt to march and obey orders and kept the camp scrubbed clinically clean. At the end of the four weeks of training there were written and practical tests to find out which line of work they were best suited to.
In terms of the lad in the middle, he was probably supplied that by an American Unit as Free French, looking at the shape of the cut on the pockets and the jacket. Hope that helps;)
Isn't that a French naval/marine cap badge that the chap is wearing, in the middle?
I would have thought that both ladies would have been badly wanted by SOE because they were natural French speaking. If not for working as agents in France then for their knowledge of France and the French language, working in the UK.
Thanks Gil, both the girls, Cleo and Helene, were at one time part of the resistance, this pic is 1944.
Helene and family emigrated to OZ in 1950, Cleo stayed in France, Constantine not sure about, but he did survive.
I have a book on Uniforms but the wife has that much junk in front of that bookcase, it would take a Pantech to move it all.
Suggesting that they were both in the SOE because they are seen in ATS uniforms, in the photo, which was sometimes used as a "cover" for SOE agents while in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008
Any clues on the colour bars worn by the girls?
As a bit of a medal buff I would say they were both THE AFRICA STAR ribbons. Muffett might know of some service they both did in Morocco/Libya/Algeria during WW2!!
Perhaps he would be kind enough to tell us if he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
He has already stated that both ladies were part of the resistance and I am assuming that he was referring to the French resistance, not to the campaign in North Africa.Quote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008
Here you go at a guess from the image Muffett supplied above. SOE Men and Women operated in AFRICA/ITALY & GERMANY as well as FRANCE.
However, if the medal tells a story, I bet they also did some special time in the sandpit too, and probably on French former colony soil!
The medals may be what you say, Gil, but the ATS uniform was normally used as a "cover" for female SOE agents, meaning that the ladies weren't actually doing what was normally associated with ATS personnel, they were secret agents.
SOE operated across occupied Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
My understanding is that SOE agents normally "worked" in the SOE section that they were assigned to. For example, SOE agents "working" in the Norwegian section would normally expect to work in Norway unless a specific operation demanded that they cross into another country. A SOE agent wouldn't routinely expect to be sent to another country other than the country of the section that they were working for, in my opinion. An SOE agent working in the French section would normally expect to be sent to France but there could be operational reasons why they may have been sent to other countries, on occasions. I would expect a SOE agent routinely working in North Africa to be a member of the North African section, not the French section.
The "Finishing School" for SOE agents was on the Beaulieu estate, now home to the UK's National Motor Museum.
Clydeside Images.com: The SOE Memorial Plaque at Beaulieu
Operation Torch - North Africa - Use of SOE
Be good to hear back from Muffett whether they might have operated in North Africa as the powers that be, decided that they’d first pacify North Africa, where the British Eighth Army and the German Afrika Korps had been fighting back and forth since 1940.
After much disagreement, it was decided to invade Morocco and Algeria and establish a base where the supply lines for the Germans in the Mediterranean could be cut. This would open as Mr. Churchill called it the “soft underbelly of Europe.” But this first foray for the Americans into the war against Nazi Germany was a victory, not so much militarily but politically as the allies were treading on a slippery slope dealing with the Free French as well as Vichy and the inexperienced Americans.
The book "Beaulieu: The Finishing School For Secret Agents" by Cyril Cunningham (Pen & Sword books) is very interesting and gives detailed information on the use of the Beaulieu estate by SOE and some background information on SOE.
There is a soft and hard cover version of this book available but I have the hardcover.
Beaulieu Finishing School Secret by Cyril Cunningham, Hardcover - AbeBooks
There is now a small SOE exhibition at Beaulieu next to Palace House.
Got the good guts from my father in law who speaks 7 languages, two tours of SVN.
The girls were stationed in EGYPT at Tel El Kabir until that was sorted then to France.
Louise was Pacific Bn. (Marines) then with the Free French Brigade in Syria, Libya and with the Eight Army, later back to France.
Great that explains the AFRICA STAR then thanks, knew there would be an explanation for the medals. I am assuming the photo was taken at the end of the war after issue??
I have met a couple of SOE ladies who served prior to Op Torch in Morocco at the SF Club in London. Sadly they are all dead now. They worked very closely with the U.S - O.S.S ladies in bars as waitresses in the Kasba's where German troops hung out in Algeria/Libya etc, really interesting listening to these French speakers as they gleaned vital intelligence on troop numbers.
I like many up until then, thought they only operated directly out of F Section in France!
No Gil, that photo was taken in 1944, the trio were together for what they thought might be the last time, before being moved back to the European Theatre.
John did give me a rundown on the medals earned, but I ran out of toes, the girls had a chestful that included French ones.
I had jotted down some notes, but John being a Frenchie speaks a bit quick for me, 39/45 Star, Afrika Star, War Medal, Defence Medal and a couple of Froggie medals that the names totally eluded me let alone try to pronounce.
Louise also had one for his Naval time in the Pacific.
I did state that SOE agents could operate in another country to which they were assigned if operational reasons made it necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
One would assume that SOE agents could transfer between sections if operations made it necessary/desirable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The Thick Plottens….It seems Helene emigrated to OZ to marry a Fighter Pilot she met in Africa, Guess who acted as Character Referee.
Nancy Wake who's code name was..... "Helene".
Just love this story, gives me a different look at people that I wish I had got to meet before they passed.
…..and that just about wraps up those three, now on to the next.
I'm gradually putting together the stories of about 30 close relations that took part in actions from WW1 through to the present day, so far it has been an incredible ride.
Wasn't the help given worth a "thank-you"?Quote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008
The icing on the cake looks like a trip to France soon, currently collating the info on War Cemetries where my family members lay.
So it will be a family get together that's been a long time coming.
So yes, thanks for your input, all comments are welcome, not just the helpful ones, but whatever keeps the forum active.
A very interesting thread Muffet. Some very brave people served SOE and the Resistance.
It's great that you can piece together the history of your relatives.
If you do get to France; let me know!
When more of SOE's secrets are released, after 100 years, in 2045, it should make for some very interesting reading especially the files relating to Holland.
I'm not sure if I will still be here in 2045 but many researchers will be looking for answers as to why so many SOE agents were sent to Holland, over an extended period, only to be immediately captured and eventually executed.
Thanks Zed, I'm working on getting all the locations into some semblance of order to get around them....might need your help later on that.
Great to see the pic. of your daughter shooting, when my lot were that age I made up a pellet trap and they spent hours shooting down the hallway....was a bit of a bugger when I needed a toilet break though, which was a constant source of amusement back then....beer has that effect on me.
Pic. replaced.