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I have been wondering for a long time. Why is the butt sling swivel on the No 5 on the right and not the left? It is in such an awkward place *** the bolt will keep reminding you where it is, it could be in the way of handling the bolt, etc.
I haven't found an answer in Reynold's book, what am I missing?
Rifle carried over left shoulder, so sling needs to be on the RH side (if not in the centre like a No4)Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
I doubt if that is the reason as you continuously change shoulders when moving with a rifle. All the other make carbine photos I've seen have the rear swivel on the left side or bottom. Were I to carry a rifle the sling would be on the left so it always lies flat against the body without the bolt reminding me of it all the time.
There must be a very British but well thought out reason for it.
Would be awkward doing rifle drill and carrying rifle at the slope with the sling hoop on the left side of a No.5, as the sling would be on the underside of the rifle when at the slope?
That makes sense. However, why not at the bottom then as for all the other numbers and marks?
Note. All the other carbine makes clearly had different parade drill requirements to the Brits.
The No5 was for the Paras and glider troops in the first place not the regular infantry.
Reynolds clearly states the No 5 developed and approved for jungle warfare and regular infantry. Later issue is a different matter. The reason for the location of the sling swivel is still hiding gleefully somewhere in the hallowed halls of the Small Arms Committees of the War Office.
I note that the right hand side butt sling bar first appeared on the 1894 Lee Metford cavalry carbine.
Attachment 103234
A short live feature, it was deleted from production the following year along with a saddle ring that was also considered redundant.
Attachment 103235
Reynolds is not always correct. The rubber butt pad was more to do with aircraft than jungle warfare which is were the No5 was used mostly (hard usage) in the Borneo Affair. I have a No5 that came fitted with a No4 Butt which in my opinion makes it a far better rifle to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
"...you continuously change shoulders when moving with a rifle..." Not in The Queen's Service you don't.
"...The No. 5 was for the..." Originally used by the Paras, but not designed for 'em. It was designed for use the jungles of the CBI Theatre.
The "rubber" butt pad is India rubber. Same as a lacrosse ball and very close to a hockey pucks and a few igneous rocks. snicker.
"...somewhere in the hallowed halls..." Yep. It's what happens when a civil servant gets an idea and is allowed to run with it, no matter how stupid.
This is my understanding as well. Vehicle use as well. I think the idea of the side sling mount was to avoid catching on webbing/equipment/vehicles etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi2
And remember the first people to appear to be issued with it were elements of the 52nd Lowland Div in Holland in autumn '44. But then they was possibly because they were deemed a mountain division, and so may have been scheduled to be first equipped with it in the same way as the G33/40 was issued to the Gebirgsjager and for the same reason.
The were standard issue to all units deployed to Palestine from '45-47, right after the end of WW2, so saw extensive use in the deserts of the middle east before they ever saw any use in a jungle.
Hmm... the Boer Mauser carbine had the sling swivel and saddle ring on the left when issued, so as to avoid the bolt digging in to your back when on horseback.
But: when shooting, if you hold the carbine sloppily, the swivel tries to crack your cheekbone as the gun recoils. It still can hurt your cheek a bit even if you take great care on how you hold the carbine. [I'm speaking from experience here].
So almost all examples of the Boer Mauser carbine have the swivel reversed to the right hand side - an easy switch since it just means unscrewing 2 bolts and doing them up on the other side, and slipping off the barrel band and reversing that too. Now, the No. 5 swivel is not built the same way, the swivel being countersunk - but maybe the loop of the sling itself [if kept tight-ish] will bruise the shooter if it is on the left?
Just a thought.
Rubber butt pad for aircraft and vehicle use? The No 5 was developed for the jungle remember and in use in 1944 already. Best I could find was to prevent slipping on clothing in the humid jungle conditions. We're all just guessing.
However, being reminded of the sling when shooting, if fitted on the left side, makes ultimate sense. The sling would interfere with the cheek in position. Then, of course, why not bottom like all the other LE, which makes still more sense?
Aha! I see the fatal limitation in your approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
Trying to apply sense to the British Army Committees... :banghead:
I believe this be a common misconception; what ever rifle was in use by an army there were always trials to make something smaller, lighter and handier for drivers, (whether they be drivers of lorries or horses drawn gun detachments) aircrew or just rear echelon troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
Because of this we have the SMLE, M1 Carbine and the AR15.
My understanding was that the rubber butt buffer was to act as a bit of a recoil buffer against the harsher kick of the No5 rifle. As for the sling position, I juist assume that as 90% of the army are right handed, then they cater for them. The cack-handers just learn to adopt. You soon learn to adapt when the shooting is for real, believe me