SA80 Rifle: Want To Know All Of The Gen?
Trying out the British Armys new assault rifle - YouTube
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Rhymes with rollocks! People will always say the SA80 is better regardless, but someone will have to convince me its better than anybody elses weapons systems "out there" as the last speaker aludes!!! It is a new variant of the A2 but still has the same flawed issues regardless of its badge IMHO
Silk purse - sows ear............ familiar to anyone? Or what about this one. Same meat, different gravy?
As Peter and others will know the Pullpup in the lates 50's drove this rifle into service when the SLR should have remained in service until everything was ironed out, and possibly into the late 90's too as the A2 hit many bumps in the road, especially when it got hot........without 40-50 degrees in Afghanistan in those days to boot!!
A bit like the L96A1 and the serious issues with that in the early days at Sennybridge!!!
It seems sometimes those that make the these vital decisions, do so with so little operational experience, amd almost a drive to get the job done regardless, putting commonsense firmly in the toilet.
Sorry to be so cynical, but it was a grave mistake bringing it in when they did, and I still have grave concerns regardless of all the retoric from the Royal Marine instructor on the film, more than his paygrade to criticise it now!!
If we were to draw up a table of the most expensive service rifles ever to be issued in military history where would the SA80 sit on that table considering the amount of money that has been spent on it during it's service life? We know that a lot of money has been spent on it but have other service rifles eclipsed it in terms of how much cash has had to be spent in order to get it into usable condition?
In answer to that it is at the pinnacle of ANY graph and one of the worst mistake Royal Ordnance have EVER made.
It should have been held off until is was ready, instead of withdrawing the BEST weapon we have ever had namely the SLR, to a lesser calibre where you need four shots to put someone down where once hit with one solitary 7.62 you didn't get up!!
From the front of the trigger guard rearwards, it's all the same stuff. From the front of the trigger guard forwards, where the changes are, are all superfluous add-ons. Did anyone notice the later type 'swirl' pronged flash eliminator shown in the video? Even back in 2008 or so when it was first being fitted nobody could say exactly what improvement it meant or made over the original 'closed-in' type with a ring around the front. The best answer we ever got was that it came as a part of the Daniel Defence handguard package and............ Open pronged flash eliminator is looking for trouble. Been there, seen the problems in 60's Malaya and SVn
Correction made. Deleted 2020 and inserted 2008
You can fit the best sight in the world to that weapon system, and it won't change a thing. Thats what they are currently doing, most of the sights cost more than the gun!!
Don't know if it's true or not but I think I remember reading somewhere that the Brit SAS prefer's the M16. If it is true that really say's something about the SA80.
You will NEVER see a Regiment guy with an SA80, and in that I don't mean attached Arms.
Yes, the optical sights DO cost more than the rifle. Even the SUSAT came in at a tad over £300 whereas the rifle was £299. That was the 1992 price I should add. But the demise of the SUSAT was one of total lack of er........, foresight - if you'll excuse the pun or 'just-in-time' when they should have been thinking 'just-in-case'
But I have to say, in its defence, that once H&K took on board all of the small scattered programmes being undertaken piece-meal and put them all into one package, mechanically the A2 wasn't bad. They didn't do it ALL, but. In fact they didn't incorporate my ideas but I did get a lot of money for my suggestions. H&K said that the A2 programme would overcome the faults AND corrections I had highlighted. Not a lot of people know that........
The Canadian made Diemaco/Colt Canada, L119A1 SFW is the go to weapon and has been for many years. I saw racks full of new ones at the Birmingham Proof House when I was there in 2009. I know the guy who designed it too as he's a retired Senior Armourer from the CF and became a senior engineer at Colt Canada after he left the CF. I carried an M16A1 in the eighties and will always be partial to the M16/M4 platform when it comes to 5.56mm rifles. They're pretty foolproof with proper maintenance.
Good point Brian,
Give anyone an Armalite variant and the controls are intuitive and fall naturally to hand, they become comfortable with the firearm very quickly.
The L85 is an absolute dogs dinner in this perspective, designed by committee, poor ergonomic design, with little reference to the end user.
The Marine Corps had gone one step further with the M16 of course and introduced the M27, a US made and modified HK416.
From what I can see, it's about perfection for military rifle, a superb (if expensive) piece of kit.
I shot an HK416 years ago too and the only impressive feature was how cool it ran with the piston system during sustained automatic fire. Many get all excited about the piston systems that have been designed for the AR platform and I'm not one of them. The direct impingement has it's drawbacks like heat in the bolt carrier and fouling if you don't keep it clean but I never saw it as a problem. I'll stick with Gene Stoner's original design. Easy to maintain with less moving parts to go wrong.
Brian,
That is clearly the point of this thread. It shows the SA80 to be an "incompetent" weapon on all counts as far as an operational weapons system is based.
The HK416 or revised M16 would have been a far better proposition, but I am convinced it was because Royal Ordnance had been recently taken over when the SA80 first reared its head and it was simply "this has to be a British weapon" that hurried it through without all the bells and whistles sorted.
Now they have in part sorted all the issues after billions have been thrown at it by successive governments, it is in my view too late to try and rectify this, with the old soldier mentality.
I do believe however, a new soldier or fresh face on the block will think it the best weapon on the face of the planet, without knowing whats gone before!!
Again in my view and perhaps biased somewhat, I do believe the PH M85 should easily have won the MOD sniper rifle contract in favour of the L96, which had its own problems in the early days. ;):thup:
I can't agree Gil, a soldier will look at other weapons around him and study them. Even a young one will handle things and through time will understand the difference. I know that there are some that can't learn, one fellow senior NCO showed ignorance saying to me "There will always be enough of our rifles lying around, we don't need to learn theirs"... Untrue... The troops will form opinions in this fast moving pace of current employment... You can't fool them forever. Then there's guys like us telling them what shyte they have at the slope...and what else there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
I've never really understood how an obviously deeply flawed firearm like the L85A1 could go through all the necessary checks and balances and be accepted for service...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
It really does seem like 'a lot' of people must have looked the other way while a totally inadequate rifle was (knowingly) issued to young men and women, who depended on it to save their lives!
Absolutely disgraceful behaviour...
At least the current A3 variant is a reliable and effective rifle, if still heavy.
No chance of a new rifle until a new NATO caliber is selected.
As a matter of interest, one of my last bosses refused to sign off the L86 LSW for service........ But someone did!
I'm minded to ask Clarkie above the following. If the current but oh-so-slow A3 version is relaible and effective, is it any MORE reliable and effective than the A2 it is slowly replacing? Given that mechanically, it is the same.
Peter,
The truth is, that many lads opt for the sharpshooter on ops due to rifle still letting them down.
If put into context, one lad recently told me on SFSG, that he used his Glock more then his rifle because it was always failing in someway.
I was surprised to hear this after RSA Enfield closed and it moved up to Notiingham where I expected great things from them, as they moved onto brand new machines and not the old stuff at Enfield. Yes the system improved somewhat, but is still dogged by issues, which I understand are manifested in sandy conditions.
One thing the SLR never suffered from!!!
As an Armourer and a prolific shooter of the SA80 in many service competitions , reliability was 2 different things.
As a shooter if I picked it up would it work as required? And for how many rounds.
As an Armourer when it came to inspections how many out of the company require repair, something the user will never know (as they would be repaired and returned to service)
The A1 was plagued with many many small faults that were mainly sorted when they changed over to the A2. But with age other faults came to light ( welds failing on the bodies and TMH’s)
I think the A 2 was slightly more reliable than the A1 but we had 15 years to get it sorted. But that dose not say the A2 was reliable just not as bad....
I found one big failing of the A2 fitted with the new handguard and down grip was the fact that you could grip the front grip and flex the barrel enough to pull shots well off target.
A reliable weapon should function AND be able to hit the target
As you say Peter, mechanically the same, new body, full length rail and up to date go faster forend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I would assume it's as reliable as the A2, it certainly should be.
---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------
I guess it's different stokes for different folks, I know one chap who used the A2 in a few tours of Afghanistan (with the usual sand pit taping up), he said it's just fine...Quote:
Originally Posted by skiprat
Perhaps given a choice though!
As an aside,
At the range last year, one of the guys brought along his son, a young serving soldier in the Signals.
He was used to using the A2 and his first go on an an AR platform was my .22 Tippmenn M4.
After he stopped his muscle memory from reaching over and searching for a cocking handle that wasn't there, he settled down and really enjoyed himself.
He thought it was a joy to shoot, controls falling to hand naturally..
The AR platform in its many guises takes a lot of beating.
Hmmmm, I said my bit regarding the SA80 in a previous thread sometime back, see post #10 in the link at the bottom, but before you proceed lets start out with some facts regarding the the small clip of the A3......... it isn't a new rifle and never will be, As Peter says, same meat different gravy is all it is.
I was fitting A3 parts (mainly new body) some years back, the only main difference is the upgrade of the welded areas.......... these parts were black by the way not the new fancy colour and that is all that is a new colour, everything else is brown so they may as well paint the rifle.
A new rifle....... very far from it, it would cost too much, the body and trigger mech is just folded pressed sheet steel, (think of AK etc) so with these bits added you get a upgraded rifle and not a new one.
Its a catch 22, when a rifle is on its last legs and where the MOD are with there budget (not a lot these days) so a few cheap solutions to bring it back to life is all that is needed really.
We will see a change someday thats for sure to an AR based platform rifle but when is anyones guess.
Its very easy to slate something off by comparison, I'm guilty of it myself regarding Citroen's, but after having a Berlingo van for over 5 years, I wouldn't hesitate to get another, either that or a Peugeot (the Berlingo and Partner were the same van just different badge)
If I was in a situation and had to grab a weapon and all the pallet of AR's had gone I wouldn't be too upset of grabbing an SA80........
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=57466
Well said Geoff, the chap I was referring to in my post who used the rifle on active service on numerous occasions, has no real complaints.
It's poor ergonomic design is overcome with training and drills, so, you have a rifle that isn't perfect, but does what it says on the box.
I doubt a replacement will be announced before 2030.
It will take a change of caliber to force the issue before that point, as you say, a new rifle is low on the priority list at the moment.