No.4 Extractor Spring Question

Noob question here.

How does one install the extractor spring in the bolthead of a Rifle No. 4?
I removed the bolthead and the spring fell right out before I noted the orientation. I haven't found clear instructions or diagrams on the internet.

My spring has a short arm with a very small bump made by dimpling from the other side, and a long arm with a rounded end. Does the long arm go to the outside or the extractor side? Does the long arm project in front of the boltface, alongside and touching the extractor claw? For that matter, should the spring be inserted from the front or the back of the piece?

I tried installing it from the front, with the long arm on the inside, going forward, touching the extractor, but it fell out after working the bolt vigorously several times. I put it back the same way, pressing the end of the short arm harder with a screwdriver, and it has stayed so far. Since two videos mention that the spring breaks easily and is best left alone, I don't want to do a lot of trial and error experimenting.

The rifle seems to be a No. 4, but I'm not sure what Mark, since it has been turned into a faux "Jungle Carbine" and electropenciled "No5MKI" on the receiver. No useful marks on the socket.

Also, the parts diagrams I've seen indicate a small screw going into the body of the bolthead. There are two holes, one larger, one smaller. Neither seems to contain a screw unless one has a tiny grub screw that my screwdriver didn't find the slot of.

Any help would be appreciated. I'm inexperienced and going cautiously.

-- David

The technical section has a number of guides showing the relationship of the various parts. Page through the No 4 ones and you should find the answer.

Also check the differences between a No 4 and No 5 rifle, you may just have a No 5! Eg, lightening cuts in Knox form, action, flash hider, rubber pad, shorter fore end. Search the forum/library for the differences.

The folded end goes inside, with the long arm of the spring on the extractor.

The small dimple on the spring locks into the small hole visible on the outside of the bolt head.

Should be a nice tight fit.

---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 PM ----------

There is a extractor spring step by step fitting guide with pictures on DS Solutions site. Site seems be down tho atm?

Put the spring in without the extractor, dimple matching hole in bolt head.

The long leg of the spring has a kink at the end, you need to use that to push the extractor under the spring. It's really tight and stiff so may take a few tries. Will clip right in when past a certain point then just fit the slotted screw.

Sounds like the screw is missing that's why it pulls out after working the bolt.

Use a piece of tooth floss to pull the spring into place.

DS is back up, here is the guide I mention. Couldnt get a better set of instructions than this!

Fitting A No4 Rifle Extractor

Did you check to see if it is possibly No 5 rifle?

That is EXACTLY how to do it, as per thread 5 pointer above. The No4 and 5 are the same. Done hundreds of 'em!

Daan asks - Did you check to see if it is possibly No 5 rifle?
----------------------

Daan -
As I said, it looks like a No.5. The gun has a curious combination of "right" and "wrong" features, so either it is a mix of No.5 and No.4 parts, or it is the work of an unusually conscientious faker. Maybe the following photos will contain something worth commenting on.

I removed the handguard, and the barrel does not have lightening flutes at the breech, so that settles it as not a No.5; however there is the proper amount of space (7 3/4 inches) between the barrel-band and the receiver.

The sight is wrong, being graduated to 1300 yards, but it has the right amount of daylight between it and the receiver.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6YZijpg2-1.jpg

The marking on the receiver appears right for a Fazakerley gun, but that's easy to fake.

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The lightening cuts at the rear of the receiver are there, but one of them is not milled perfectly straight and parallel to the wood.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ylLOjpg1-1.jpg

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The receiver has a transverse cut (as for scope-mounting) over the rear of the chamber (and a big paint sag near the charger bridge).

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5EsEjpg1-1.jpg

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The socket has only the ENGLAND export mark, a couple of small broad arrrows, and some small marks I don't recognize.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...K3rqjpg1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...HrUCjpg1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...baqejpg2-1.jpg

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The trigger guard extension has the proper wasp-wasted shape.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IszNjpg1-1.jpg

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The bolt handle does not have the lightening hole in the knob. The bayonet lug has an angled notch on the right side. The front sight has M/470 on the left side and a broad arrow plus 4 cryptic Brit-marks on the right - sorry, no photo. No marks on the magazine (which doesn't fit well) except partially obliterated numbers and file marks, and no withdrawn-from-service double arrows anywhere.

-- David

Thanks to Daan Kemp, Scout Sniper, Peter Laidler, and Lee Enfield for the suggestions and valuable links.

Having followed Scout Sniper's link to Fitting A No4 Rifle Extractor I saw that my bolthead didn't look like the one pictured there. Where there should be a hole for the extractor screw, mine had a filed down surface with indication of a filled hole.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2li3jpg1-1.jpg

instead of

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...torcomps-1.jpg

Apparently, someone had put in a screw and filed the head off. Consequently, I can't get the screw out and release the extractor to do the installation properly.

I tried pulling the spring through with dental floss as Lee Enfield suggested, but the floss broke where it was pinched between the spring and the sides of the slot.

I tried inserting the spring from the back while pressing down to compress it, but couldn't get it compressed enough to go in.

Thought about grinding a slot in the bolthead across the screw head, and trying to get the screw out with a screwdriver, but ended up using a vise to press the spring in[/B] from the front. For a while, it was tight, and it repeatedly stripped a round off the magazine, held, fed, extracted and ejected it. But the spring came loose again when I cycled the action multiple times, and, as I feared, I had bent the long arm of the spring into into a tighter curve in the pressing operation.

I may try grinding the screw slot, or just order a new bolthead, spring, and screw, and be done with it.

Thanks again to everyone.

-- David

Thanks to Daan Kemp, Scout Sniper, Peter Ladler and Lee Enfield for the valuable suggestions and links.

Having followed Scout Sniper's link to Fitting A No4 Rifle Extractor I saw that my bolthead didn't look like the one pictured. Where there should be a hole for the extractor screw, mine had a filed down surface with indication of a filled hole.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2li3jpg1-1.jpg

instead of

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...torcomps-1.jpg

Apparently, someone had put in a screw and filed the head off. Consequently, I can't get the screw out and release the extractor to do the installation properly.

I tried pulling the spring through with dental floss as Lee Enfield suggested, but the floss was cut in the tight fit between the spring and the sides of the slot.

I tried inserting the spring from the back while pressing down to compress it, but couldn't get it compressed enough to go in.

Thought about grinding a slot in the bolthead across the screw head, and trying to get the screw out with a screwdriver, but ended up using a vise to press the spring in[/B] from the front. It seated well, and for a while it was tight - it repeatedly stripped a round off the magazine, held, fed, extracted and ejected it. But the spring came loose again when I cycled the action multiple times, and, as I feared I would, I had bent the long arm of the spring into into a tighter curve in the pressing operation.

I may try grinding the screw slot, or just order a new bolthead, spring, and screw, and be done with it.

Thanks again to everyone.

-- David

================================
Daan asks - Did you check to see if it is possibly No 5 rifle?
================================

Daan -
The gun has a curious combination of "right" and "wrong" features, so either it is a mix of No.5 and other model parts, or it is the work of an unusually conscientious faker.

I removed the handguard, and the barrel does not have lightening flutes at the breech, so that settles it as not a No.5; however there is the proper amount of space (7 3/4 inches) between the barrel-band and the receiver.

The sight is wrong, being stamped MKII and graduated to 1300 yards, but it has the right amount of daylight between it and the receiver. The lightening cuts at the rear of the receiver are there, but one of them is not milled perfectly straight and parallel to the wood.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ylLOjpg1-1.jpg

The electro-pencilled inscription on the receiver appears right for a Fazakerley gun, but that's easy to fake. The receiver has a transverse cut (as for scope-mounting) over the rear of the chamber and a big paint sag near the charger bridge. The socket has only the ENGLAND export mark, a couple of small broad arrrows, and some small marks I don't recognize.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...HrUCjpg2-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...baqejpg3-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...K3rqjpg2-1.jpg

The trigger guard extension has the proper undulating shape. The bolt handle does not have the lightening hole in the knob. The front sight is marked M/47C on the left, and on the right, has a broad arrow, three tiny unreadable marks, and what may be a sideways C (or a headphones icon, but no headphone jack is evident). The bayonet lug has an angled notch on the right side.

Nothing on the ill-fitting magazine except partially obliterated numbers and file marks on the bottom. No withdrawn-from-service double arrows anywhere on the rifle. The wood is unmarked, as are the barrel-band and hardened rubber buttplate.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's a genuine No.5 that had been sporterized and then semi-restored, having an original receiver, trigger-guard, buttplate and perhaps wood, but a replacement barrel, bolt, and sight from a different model rifle.

Any other information or speculations would be welcomed.

-- David

If it were me I would get a nice sharp centre punch and put a decent centre dot on the screw head as close to the edge as possible. Then locate the punch at an angle and knock it round.

Sounds primitive but worked when the head sheared head of a Luger P08 grip screw from 1917.

Failing that I'd say it's new bolt head time, and to be honest with the amount of force and pressure it is under I would say replacement is the best solution.

==============================
Daan asks - Did you check to see if it is possibly No 5 rifle?
==============================

Daan -
I tried to send this reply and got a message that a moderator would have to check it before it could published. After days of waiting I sent it again this morning and got the same message.The problem may have been the number of photos I included; so here it is without pictures, in hopes that it will get through -

The gun has a curious combination of "right" and "wrong" features for a No.5, so either it is a mix of No.5 and other-model parts, or it is the work of an unusually thorough faker.

I removed the handguard, and the barrel does not have lightening flutes at the breech, so that settles it as not an intact No.5 rifle; however there is the proper amount of space (7 3/4 inches) between the barrel-band and the receiver.

The sight is wrong, being stamped MKII and graduated to 1300 yards, but it has the right amount of daylight between it and the receiver. The lightening cuts at the rear of the receiver are there, but one of them is not milled perfectly straight and parallel to the wood. The inscription on the receiver appears right for a Fazakerley gun. The receiver has a transverse cut (as if for scope-mounting) over the rear of the chamber and a big paint sag near the charger bridge. The socket has only the ENGLAND export mark, a couple of small broad arrrows, and some small marks I don't recognize.

The trigger guard extension has the proper undulating shape for the No.5, but the bolt handle is solid, without the lightening hole in the knob. The front sight has M/47C stamped on the left side, and on the right, a broad arrow, a sideways C (or a headphones symbol, but no headphone jack is evident), and three tiny unreadable marks.The bayonet lug has an angled notch on the right side. No marks on the magazine except partially obliterated numbers and file marks. The stocks, barrel-band, and rubber-pad buttplate have no marks, and there are no withdrawn-from-service opposed arrows anywhere.

If I had to guess, I'd guess it's a genuine No.5 which had been sporterized at some point and later semi-restored, so the receiver, trigger guard and buttplate and possibly the wood are original; the barrel, bolt, and sights are replacements from some other model Enfield or modern repros.

Any other information, suggestions or speculations would be welcome.

-- David

It sounds to me as if someone has rounded-up a heap of Enfield parts and said "lets see what we can make".
It would appear to be a total 'bitsa' that has not seen an amourer for many, many years.

At what stage does a rifle become something else - it would appear that the only 'correct' part is the action.

Photos would help to finalise the thinking, but, a No5 it isn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tremors.476

there is the proper amount of space (7 3/4 inches) between the barrel-band and the receiver.
...
If I had to guess, I'd guess it's a genuine No.5 which had been sporterized at some point and later semi-restored ...
-- David

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Neglected to mention that that the squared metal cap to the fore-end is missing, and the wood there has been rounded off, suggesting an original No.5 stock, sporterized at one time.

-- D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tremors.476

here it is without pictures

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You could always email me the pics and I'll put them here. Check your PMs for messages...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tremors.476

Neglected to mention that that the squared metal cap to the fore-end is missing, and the wood there has been rounded off, suggesting an original No.5 stock, sporterized at one time.

-- D

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Not sporterized. Removed in service because of water damage under the metal cap. PL discussed this in his notes.