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Hey all,
I have a “money pit” project in mind and was curious if anyone has any experience with reboring.
The tricky part of this project is the small amount I need cut away.
One site I found said they needed to cut a minimum of .030” away to get a clean cut. Perhaps that was just with their tooling though.
So is boring out a .351 bore to .357, cleanly, possible?
A Winchester 1907 in 38 Super would be pretty cool! But yes, an expensive project ;)
I had a rebore done in a model 64 Winchester from .30 to .38/55 and it was fine. I don't know about yours, you should contact any one of several that do it in the US and ask the man himself. He'll want to pull it apart with you over the phone...
I had a .351 self loader that I chambered in 9mm and left the barrel as was. It was clean enough and I used P38 mags with a spacer built against the rear with a simple mag catch. The cartridges didn't have far to go into the chamber and I lightened the slide to allow it to function...worked great. No mods required besides. The gun is solid so I wouldn't worry about .38 Super. Might feed as is.
What about the difference in bore size between the (true) .351 Winchester and the .357 (or so) 9mm?
Overpressure issues?
I didn't have any, the cases looked good. I used ball of every make I could get reasonably and military...my own loads... Even with holes drilled the bolt and operating slide are heavy. They are also still blowback...
I'll probably get roasted here for carelessness but it worked fine. I've done clutchier crap and come out fine too...
I’d certainly prove safety to myself before firing heaps through it. No need for a safety roasting, just a discussion.
It’s and interesting thought. And still salable as original if I didn’t like how it behaved.
I’ll have to think about this. But quick. I ran across one with a poor finish and no wood. Paid a whole $100 for it...but it’s up for sale now. Might let it simmer for a couple days. If it doesn’t get snapped up I’ll have to pull it and play around a bit.
I forget what the bore was like...but it was probably not shiney and new. You could slug it before the chamber ream went in, I did ream for 9mm so it fit. If you look in history you find they were used and called something like Fidels carbines...that's where I got the idea.
A rebore from .351 to .357 will most likely not clean up the grooves; and for what you are contemplating is not necessary. To keep my .35 Win Self Loader operational I turn the rims of .38 Special and load with 357 bullets, when I get lazy I just single load .38 Special commercial +Ps. These rifles have been converted to .357 Magnum using the issue barrels and in the 1970's there was an article recommending this alteration in one of the sporting gun magazines.
Best, Bill
Well that settles that. I’ve pulled my listing for this item so I can play with this idea.
With auction season settling down a bit for winter, maybe I’ll have some time to fiddle with this.
Thanks guys!
Let us know once it's done...might help others in your position later.
Lee sells custom bullet sizing dies. You can order one in 351 or 352. That's what I did. It can be used for either cast or jacketed bullets.
What I meant to say is that a larger bullet like 357 can be swaged down to 351 or 352 using one of these diesQuote:
Originally Posted by fritz1255
If you have a nice bore and chamber in your 351 SL why not restore it back to original configuration ? Numrich sells buffers and Wolff has springs plus repro
wood is available. Some shooters are using the 360 S&W to forum brass while some get by with 223 brass if it will work in your rifle. You could blue it yourself
or have someone blue it close to original color
I’ll definitely be purchasing reproduction wood for it.
I won’t be rebluing it. The finish isn’t that bad.
As far as the caliber, I have no desire to start reloading. It just doesn’t appeal to me at all.
If I can perform a one-time conversion that operates reliably and safely (I realize that part is up for debate still) and allows me to shoot 38 Super for 30 cents a round...well that sounds like a fun project!
Thanks for the input though. These are good looking and interesting rifles that don’t get the attention they deserve.
These rifles are relatively inexpensive compared to other US made rifles of the same vintage mostly because ammo is unavailable. I have no idea whether converting to 38 Super would work, but reloading is the only alternative for 351 WSL. Just be aware that your rifle has to be able to feed and eject as well as shoot 38 Super cartridges, so you may end up having to reload anyways to get your rifle to function properly.
Making that work is the fun part! :thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by fritz1255
I had no trouble there at all. It never failed that. The bolt face was good like it was. I expect the 38 super will be even better as it has even more snap and is longer than 9mm.Quote:
Originally Posted by fritz1255
Exactly and exactly my thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Other than being shorter, the 38 Super is almost a dimensional clone of the 351. It's just a touch bigger throughout. I will not be surprised if it drops in without putting a reamer in the chamber, actually.
I'm going to pick up some ammo this evening and see how it fits -- the takedown feature will make this safe and easy to try!
It'll probably hammer in with the forward energy of the whole slide though. Minor swage...get a box and give it a try on singles or mag fed... I had some that chambered up in a model 10 HB that I had, fired just like factory .38 Spl+P... Try and see...worst case is a slight ream, that would be a 9mm ream anyway isn't it? Maybe 9x21?
As expected, the 38 Super drops in all on it's own. Literally I can drop it into the chamber and it settles right in.
I can also get two or three to feed in from the magazine with no modification at all.
So the next hurdle is the magazine.
My (somewhat megalomaniacal) vision for the project is a three-parter:
1. Cheaply get these rifles shooting a cheap, off the shelf, caliber.
2. Feed from an outwardly original magazine that has been modified internally so as to not ruin the original aesthetics of the rifle.
3. Lighten the rifle.
Part three is a fun one I've been doing some research on.
A fella named Newton had something to say about it. With all reactions having an equal but opposite reaction I'm able to calculate the speed at which the bolt is moving after firing.
Ignoring the spring for the moment, I obtained load data of the original round and also weighed the bolt.
*Bolt Weight = 38.7 Ounces
*Original Bullet Weight = .4114 Ounces
*Original Load Velocity = 1,870 ft/s
Since the .4114 ounce bullet is moving at 1,870 ft/s, we can calculate that the 38.7 ounce bolt is moving backward at 19.87 ft/s.
Here comes the fun part:
*38 Super Bullet Weight = .2857 Ounces
*38 Super Velocity = 1,200 ft/s.
This load with a 38.7 ounce bolt would clock the bolt movement at 8.86 ft/s.
Apparently though, the design can handle 19.87 ft/s. By starting with the 38 Super data and working toward a 19.87 ft/s bolt speed, we see that I would need a bolt weighing only 17.25 ounces! A reduction of 21.45 ounces!!
Now, obviously I don't want to hot rod the ol' girl and with a .357" bullet in a .351" barrel I may be getting more than the published velocity out of that 38 Super.
Still, if I aim for a bolt travelling at 15 ft/s, I'm still reducing the bolt weight by about a pound.
Published data on the rifle puts the total weight at 7.5 to 8 pounds.
So it looks possible to convert these to 38 Super and reduce the weight to 6.5 pounds. That would be a sweet little rifle.
My next step is to find a bit of land where I can tie this thing to a stump and fire off some rounds. I need to observe extraction and ejection before adding in any more money.
Project Cost Tally Thus Far: $150
I reduced the slide weight by transverse drilling large holes and made it considerably lighter.
The new magazine could be held inside the original by a couple ways and then you have the original look. Maybe you could use a block at the back of the original and hold cartridges forward. Maybe you need to add feed lips at the front, I forget what the original looks like. An insert mag would be from a Gov't model...
You can't lighten the rifle up without changing things outwardly. Don't worry about tying it to a stump, just arms length for the first couple. You'll see. I held mine and watched it cycle...
A couple fellow gun guys from work live out in the country. I’ll have to see if they have a place I can do this. Maybe this weekend so I can get moving on the next steps.
.38 Super uses a .355" bullet. The .351 is not. It's a .352".
Then you get to convert from rimless to rimmed.
Graf's wants $42.99 per 20 for Bertram .351 SL brass.
1. Thank you. This has been discussed previously in the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunray
2. In fact, that's incorrect. One could say that 38 Super is less rimmed than .351 Winchester. See the attached images.
3. As discussed previously in the thread, I want nothing to do with reloading.
Attachment 103568
Attachment 103569
I think the 38 super will function it just fine. The slight swage we have happening will help function...
I believe that groove depth is 356-358 already.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcathey
I know a number of people who rechambered Win .351 to .357 magnum.
I believe it's a simple rechambering job followed by some feeding cleanup.
http://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.com/thread/645/ammo-351-win
Quite a bit there on this one...here's the guys that say they have the ammo on hand... http://www.loadxammo.com/
Here's the link live... http://vintagesemiautorifle.proboard...5/ammo-351-win
Alright folks, here's the results!
It fires just fine but it does not cycle the action. Most of the time I'd get stovepipes but if it was ever able to get a casing out of the action, the bolt did not go back far enough to pick up the second round.
All of this was expected and fixable with reducing the weight of the bolt.
So far, so good!
I have attached some pictures of the casings. I was concerned I'd see some pressure signs due to the bullet being a slightly larger diameter but I'm not seeing anything that concerns me greatly.
Attachment 103580Attachment 103578Attachment 103579
I do see some ringing of the cases about a quarter inch up from the head. I'm not concerned about this since I won't be reloading anyway but it was unexpected.
Diameter wise, the 38 Super is larger than the .351 Winchester. I wouldn't have expected there to be room for this to happen.
I have purchased a 15 round 1911 38 Super magazine for the next steps. Total project cost = $185 so far.
Any thoughts/comments?
Primers still look inwards from the firing pin indent instead of being flattened back against the bolt face. Not sure if that is good , bad or non relevant for what your working on.
The primers look to me to be about right considering the bolt face, look at it you'll see. It's likely not beautiful itself. If they were FLAT, it would be because of high pressures.
The swelling isn't a problem, look at your .45 cases sometime... As for case shape, it's still different from the .351 by just a bit.
Won't cycle because of bolt weight...yes...needs large transverse holes in the slide up front. Mine ejected 9mm completely. Also if you can polish the chamber a bit with fine machine paper and oil you'll be gold. There's a bit of roughness on the cases...I think.
You'll want that mag fixed forward so the cases are controlled into the feed...
My plan as of now is to take just the top off of the current (aftermarket) magazine and fit it onto the top of the 1911 magazine. Basically I’d be using the width and the magazine latch as a fixture for holding the new magazine.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I’ll be working on the bolt weight first though.
Won't be hard...you'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcathey
Hello all! Time for an update.
I wasn't able to shave off an entire pound like I was hoping but I did get a bit over 15 ounces converted into shavings. This is close and I suspect will work fine.
I started with drilling holes but that didn't take off enough weight and eventually I chucked this up in a 4-jaw and started shaving some off that way.
Were I to do this again, I'd start with the lathe. I think it would make for a more attractive finished product and I'd be able to get even more weight off. Since the holes were already there, I wasn't able to go as thin as I would have on the lathe.
I had a few missing parts so I determined that I'd be better off just buying another and transplanting the slide. It's in slightly better shape but has been poorly maintained - I'm having a devil of a time getting the guide rod out to disassemble it. It's soaking in penetrating oil as we speak.
Once I've got it apart, I'll sell the original slide from this one on the other project base.
A couple side by side pics really show how much weight is gone!
Attachment 103830Attachment 103831
I just remember drilling the holes...across I think, not vertical. You could also have joined the holes up and removed the material in between several. I can't remember how big the holes were either. Just as big as I could...and further back into the slide. Anyway, forge ahead...
I found a place that sells 351 ammo and shells, from Australia! Rusty Wood Trading Co, BC Canada
Yes, well known to the shooters here. I see you're from "The Gonish"... Long time since I was there studying the bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale_Oldfart
Gosh, even I had forgotten about this project haha.
I’ll have to dig it out of the vault and see where I left off — lots has happened since November of 2019, that’s for sure.
That would have made for a good project during this past year. I too want to see fruition...the magazine fitment.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcathey