1944 Inland M1A1 Carbine.

Hi all,

Well, I went ahead and bought myself a UK spec, Straight pull M1A1 carbine.

I apologise for the phone pics, work means little time for photography at the moment.

The s/n places this example inside the block of Carbines randomly selected for M1A1 stocks.

The barrel is Inland *44 marked (can't make out the month).

The stock is in all round good order with, no cracks or splits, crossed cannons and OI (Overton Inland) on the base of the grip and OI stamped inside.

It has M R stamped on the left (Mount Rainier Ordinance Depot), post war rebuild and upgrade with the accompanying lone 'P' added on the front of the pistol grip.

It also has '13' on the pistol grip, user wrack number I would guess.

The leather on the wire butt is fragile and frayed,I've treated it with leather oil and carefully wrapped it to conserve it and placed an ammo pouch over the top.

Interestingly, it's s/n is stamped in the barrel channel, I only found this when I started cleaning the woodwork in preparation for re-oiling.

It was hidden under 70 odd years of filth!

The rifle was 'really' dirty, took ages to clean after detail stripping, clearly it has all been together for a very long time.

Bores a little frosty in places, the odd Pit, but looks ok.

Question for the Carbine experts, did Mount Rainier typically put the S/N in the barrel channel after refurbishment?

Cheers John.






Attachment 103888Attachment 103889Attachment 103890Attachment 103891Attachment 103892

No, none of the armories or the US military did this. It was done overseas with Israel coming to mind for serial numbers being stamped on a stock. But the carbines returned here from Israel have been clean compared to a lot of them from other countries. If I remember right quite a few M1A1 carbines went to the British military for use in Malaysia.

Looks like it has had several upgrades. Still that is a very nice stock. That would look good in anyone's collection.

If you can read the number after the asterisk of the butt plate what is it, please? A pic of the butt plate inside stamping would be appreciated, not just a zoom of the numbers though.

Pic of the inside of the butt plate added....
Do the numbers help date the stock guys?

I'm assuming the number after the wagon wheel is a month stamp?

I still can't believe the amount of crap that came off this M1 when I cleaned it, red dirt and dry oil inside the stock, carbon, sooty powder residue, dirt, mould, you name it!

Whoever the last state user was, they certainly didn't look after it!

Thanks for the pic. It's a good one. The number was the position in the mold and there were 12 positions at time of casting pour.

I believe the number after the wagon wheel indicates a molding. I seem to remember that several butt plates could be molded at one time and that the molds were numbered. HTH

Best Regards.....Frank

Thanks for the feedback guys...

South East Asia, had lots of red dirt/dust. It would creep into everything.

On a related note, I am putting the finishing touches to a post War NOS unissued or marked Birchwood M2 stock.

Woodwork very lightly sanded, coloured and oiled and looking better every day as the oil slowly darkens the finish.

It will be for a change of clothes for the Inland occasionally.

I've got everything bar the front band spring, anyone have a spare they would like to part with!

Failing that, anyone know of suppliers in Europe, or that ship to Europe?

Cheers John.

Quite a few parts for carbines and for M1A1's are available in France. Look on Ebay for parts over there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I've got everything bar the front band spring

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I'm probably getting mixed up here John, but are you talking about the barrel band (yours being the later T4 barrel band - or 'Type 3') that holds the stock and handguard? If so (and you will already know this!) it stays on the barrel, can't be removed without disturbing the front sight. It should be OK with your M2 woodwork. But as I said, I'm probably getting my terms mixed and talking a load of ****!

Edit...
Ha, as soon as I posted I realised that you are referring to the spring steel pin and catch that goes through the stock and holds the 'barrel band'. If so I'm surprised the stock didn't come with it, they usually do IIRC, but it's been a while. A solution may be to see if you can find a really old crappy stock that has one. The shame is I had one! A tatty M2 stock I bought at Beltring years ago and sold at a car-boot for a fiver 'cos I thought 'I'll never use that old stock'. I've kicked myself more than once - never throw anything away! (despite what my wife might say). Sorry!

You've got it Charlie, it's the spring for the band.

There are a few on eBay, France, Norway and Italy...

Last piece of the puzzle mate...

---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

Though now you have me thinking about acquiring the early production parts...!

I'm getting bitten by the carbine bug...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Though now you have me thinking about acquiring the early production parts...!

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I did wonder about that John, especially as you have that very nice M1A1 stock and the 1944 Inland M1. But you're looking at a quite a few parts; flip rear sight, early 'push button' safety (I think it can be directly replace the later rotary one), 2-rivet handguard, Type 1 or 2 barrel band - tricky to replace as the front sight has to come off. And without wishing to dampen your enthusiasm, we're on the wrong side of the Atlantic to find these parts easily, and they aren't cheap!

What you have is a very nice looking late war M1A1. To quote from Canfield; 'M1A1 carbines procured under the "second run" began to be manufactured in April of 1944 with the first deliveries in May. The weapons continued to be produced through Deecmeber 1944. These M1A1 carbines will have features consistent with mid- to late 1944 Inland carbines such as low wood stocks, adjustable rear sights (in most cases) and "T4" barrel bands late in the production run'

So maybe you need a M4 bayonet!

Let's get it shooting and... some high res pics for us to drool over!

Re the M2 stock Charlie, it's an unused and unissued Birch example, missing the spring catch.

This seller in Italy has some parts.
Including the Band Spring you need......
Also 3 or 4 M1A1 Stocks to give you an idea of what your wood can sell for.

M1 CARBINE, FRONT BAND SPRING-Spring Band or Front Spring (CD. 141b) | eBay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

This seller in Italy has some parts.
Including the Band Spring you need......
Also 3 or 4 M1A1 Stocks to give you an idea of what your wood can sell for.

M1 CARBINE, FRONT BAND SPRING-Spring Band or Front Spring (CD. 141b) | eBay

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Cheers Charlie, I'll take a proper look when I get to my office, I'm on my phone at the moment and the stocks don't show, only stock parts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charlie303

I did wonder about that John, especially as you have that very nice M1A1 stock and the 1944 Inland M1. But you're looking at a quite a few parts; flip rear sight, early 'push button' safety (I think it can be directly replace the later rotary one), 2-rivet handguard, Type 1 or 2 barrel band - tricky to replace as the front sight has to come off. And without wishing to dampen your enthusiasm, we're on the wrong side of the Atlantic to find these parts easily, and they aren't cheap!

What you have is a very nice looking late war M1A1. To quote from Canfield; 'M1A1 carbines procured under the "second run" began to be manufactured in April of 1944 with the first deliveries in May. The weapons continued to be produced through Deecmeber 1944. These M1A1 carbines will have features consistent with mid- to late 1944 Inland carbines such as low wood stocks, adjustable rear sights (in most cases) and "T4" barrel bands late in the production run'

So maybe you need a M4 bayonet!

Let's get it shooting and... some high res pics for us to drool over!

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M4 bayonet you say ... It's on the list Charlie, as a dyed in wool Milsurps collector, I make a point of not buying anything I can't fit a bayonet on!

The exception being my wifes .22LR BSA International target rifle...

Just retrieved from 20 years in storage, beautifully made, not a single pressed or cast component on it, precision machined, hand fitted and finished to the highest standards of the once mighty British gun trade...

The things a Lazer, absolutely accurate and capable of perfect scores all day long in the right hands...

I'm struggling to find the love to be perfectly honest, it sticks out like a bull dogs swinging parts in my gun room!

I saw this and nearly fell off my office chair!

M1 parachutists-Football Folding Para Carbine Folding Stock-ww2 (4) CD. | eBay

How much!

Forgetting the ridiculous price, I just don't think that is the pucker kit mate only IMHO, it looks fabricated and made to look older!

I think they are real Gil, Italy appears to be both a former user and destination for former foreign Military Aid examples.

Judging by the absolutely filthy state of mine when I bought it, they have been poorly stored and I shouldn't be surprised if some are beyond saving and worth more parted out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I saw this and nearly fell off my office chair!

M1 parachutists-Football Folding Para Carbine Folding Stock-ww2 (4) CD. | eBay

How much!

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Looks real to me. One problem is no butt plate pictures. It's a high wood, but RI3 pistol grip and I don't see prominent crossed cannon stamp. RI3 is not wrong but also not the ultimate configuration for a high wood. The ultimate would be OI marked.

Piggy bank!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fm1a1box-1.jpg

---------- Post added at 08:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 AM ----------

None of the 3 or 4 stocks he has listed show the Butt plates or close views of the Rivets.
Also noticed on his Type III straight hammers he uses 1 stock photo (Of some maker :dunno:) to represent the other makers.

It's a case of buyer beware and do your homework first I guess Charlie.

And get specific pictures sent.

No point spending a small fortune only to discover it's correct, but badly cracked at the rear and only suitable for display.

Charlie, That photo looks like the ones that were in Germany about 8 years ago now.; A small dealer there had bought several boxes of those. They came out of Malaysia and Burma he said.

ahhhhhhhhh................with the illusive Spitfires!! Sorry to much cynicism for a Monday!
With these PARA stocks, having seen some really good copies, mostly hailing from the States you have to have them in your hands to make really sure.
I am sure you intend to do that anyway before you part with your hard earned money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

With these PARA stocks, having seen some really good copies, mostly hailing from the States...

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They don't come from the USA, do they? They come to the USA. If the pics are decent enough you can determine they're real or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

Charlie, That photo looks like the ones that were in Germany about 8 years ago now.; A small dealer there had bought several boxes of those. They came out of Malaysia and Burma he said.

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Bruce,
I have no idea where they came from. I stumbled across it in a photo album I was cleaning up the other day and just posted it for clark303 to see. I made NO CLAIMS to being original.
I was sent that picture from Mike in New Zealand. He asked if I could post it for him back in 2009. In that thread member 442nd in reply #8 has a similar theory like yours about them.
Here is that post:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17294

After doing a Google Image Search of that picture I found the same picture as part of a discussion in Denmark.
Notice the last picture showing all the boxed M1A1 parts. Same picture the French seller nenel3 shows in some of his Ebay auctions.
Denmark Thread/Translated:
Google Translate

Below is a current Ebay link with the seller nenel3 showing the same boxed parts and then the picture:

M1 CARBINE, M1 PARATROOPER long hinge screw, US GI, WWII | eBay

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/sl1600-1.jpg

Thanks Charlie, very interesting indeed. there's a huge amount of information out there, and the European aspect seems to be a story waiting to be told.

We have clearly just scratched the surface of the European story.

It looks as if a large amount of surplus M1A1 stocks and parts came to Europe as either part of the massive Military assistance program, or via commercial sale.

I would think as large numbers of M1 Carbines were part of this aid, it stands to reason large numbers of spares would be shipped with them ... unneeded NOS unissued M1A1 parts among them it would seem.

Good opportunity for a stateside spring clean!

As I said Charlie that photo looked like the one the dealer had in Germany. $600 each and some shipping. I should have ordered two or three instead of one. Excellent shape and 100% Inland. When I went back for another one he had sold them all.

Here's the Birch M2 set of clothes for the M1A1, prepared, coloured down and treated to one week of raw linseed oil treatment.

Front band spring ordered with a spare oiler and sling, so the rifle can be swapped in and out easily.

Some nice figuring has slowly come to life over the week in the usually bland Birch woodwork and I look forward to watching it go a beautiful deep honey colour as the oil slowly oxidises.

No markings on the woodwork apart from a solitary '5' or 'S' in the butt cut out.

Is that Springfield, post war guys?

IF Springfield you'd normally find SA stamped on top of the left side edge of the front barrel channel.
Most of the time they look to be 2 separately stamped letters: S and A.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

No markings on the woodwork apart from a solitary '5' or 'S' in the butt cut out.

Is that Springfield, post war guys?

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This is a timely question. I just found a stock that sounds possibily similarly stamped. Mine is very small and sideways. Couldn't tell if it was two Ss or tow 5s and they're spread far apart. One at the top and one at the bottom. The right side of the stock appears that a cartouche was sanded off.

Ditto TenOC, sounds like the same stock!

Mine had a cartouche removed too... Curious....

---------- Post added at 09:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 AM ----------

You can just see the remains of it in my full length woodwork picture.

It looks like a lightly stamped square cartouche, roughly removed.

John,
WHY would they do that, as surely it is the correct provenance for the rifle?

I don't know Gil, I'm guessing some government or other ownership mark that was removed on surplus, possibly European police force maybe?

I really can't see why anyone would bother to be honest mate...

Forgot that it had a rebuild stamp which is why whatever was on the other side was removed I assume.

Yes, the SN in the barrel channel was done in Israel. All it means is, that's the stock it wore when they got it and it was good enough to use, so they marked it to stay with the carbine. It could be the original stock or not.

Thanks Inland, that's great information.