New 1941 Lithgow! Did I get Fleeced?

Hello all and thank you for letting me join the forum. I'm new to the Enfield world but have always wanted one of these iconic rifles. Unfortunately, I didnt do enough research and when I saw this rifle in my local shop I immediately decided I wanted it. Spur of the moment will be the death of me.*

I'm unclear on this mismatch of serial #'s and markings. I've done a fair amount of investigating and eventually found a JJCO stamp (rats!) and that immediately sent up a red flag of panic. The damn thing was hiding (see pic) and I didn't spot it in the shop. The condition was excellent and we were all gushing over it in the shop - but now I'm realizing that this was most likely one of their janky rebuilds.*

I'm very familiar with the John Covino shop in NYC and was aghast when I made the connection. It's a terribly run shop these days and a notoriously unfriendly/unhelpful place. I wonder if you all would mind sharing some insights if you have any. I'm not too familiar with Enfields so this is all new territory for me. Im incredibly concerned that its missing the brass recoil pads but I may be wrong. I've put maybe 30-40 rounds through it and it shot wonderfully but I'm concerned about its longevity without them.

Many thanks for all of your help. I made a little wrap for the stock - I'm sure it might offend some purists but I like doing it so what can I say. There are ZERO markings on the stock however so no information is lurking behind that bridle leather.*

PICS BELOW!

https://imgur.com/a/HVKheqi

Can't imagine why that black leather is on the butt, the rest looks nice and clean. Perhaps you paid too much but now it's a shooter for you. If it shoots well then don't worry. I think it's what you say it is too...

Well, I think you answered your own question. It is one of Jovino's "put-togethers". This surfaced in the mid to late '90s. I remember the advertisements that were put out. These were touted as unissued and rare. Price tag back then was $499. The consensus was these were the last of the Lithgow SMLE's imported from Australia, mostly as barreled actions. Jovino apparently bought up all the NOS stock sets, blackened the rifles and assembled them all. They went out to sales as "new" rifles.

If your happy with how it shoots, and you didn't give too much for it, then blast away. They are beautiful rifles, even if they are a Jovino special. The lack of the copper recoil blocks isn't too much of a concern. Yes, the draws would pulp on those coachwood stocks, but I doubt you'd do that, unless you have a pile of 303 you are planning to run through it.

I have to admit, that was a sneaky place to hide the import mark! I probably would've missed it too.

Yeah, re-stocked, re-blued and probably built from parts, but it looks lovely, and if it shoots well that's great. I have a mix of collector rifles and nice looking shooters, and I'm learning there is a difference. Both are good in their own way.

Thanks for the response! Well I figure I'd eventually put "a pile" of 303 through it as I bought it to be a shooter. Can I safely shoot this for the considerable future? Or should I be using it as little as possible because of the lack of recoil blocks? Id like to be able to sit out with it every week and run 50-60 rounds through it. Id hate to feel like every round fired was just one step closer to the rifle breaking down on itself and potentially becoming a risk to myself and others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thrawnformbi

Can I safely shoot this for the considerable future?

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Yes. The wood can turn soft after oil over time and thousands of rounds. You'll likely be OK. You can always keep an eye on it and do the upgrade after a few years. The way to add blocks is here in forum if you search...

Don't know what you paid but looks like you got a decent rifle, with matching bolt and receiver. I have had a couple of these in years past and enjoyed them. I did install and fit the recoil blocks in both rifles from the info here on the forum. A little involved to do the fitting but not really hard to do following directions.

Yeah, on the first one I found the JJ mark under the rear sight after I had already bought it also. Was disappointed at first but it was a good looking, good shooter (both were).

Looks nice apart from that "thing" on the stock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thrawnformbi

Thanks for the response! Well I figure I'd eventually put "a pile" of 303 through it as I bought it to be a shooter. Can I safely shoot this for the considerable future? Or should I be using it as little as possible because of the lack of recoil blocks? Id like to be able to sit out with it every week and run 50-60 rounds through it. Id hate to feel like every round fired was just one step closer to the rifle breaking down on itself and potentially becoming a risk to myself and others.

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If it has new wood, which it certainly looks like, and it has been bedded correctly, you won't need recoil blocks. For what it's worth, none of my Lee Enfields have them fitted. What I'm learning is these rifles were intentionally built tough, which is why they still work.

Stunning!

hi i fitted a set of copper blocks yesterday it is not a big job just take your time if you go a bit to far a couple of bits of aluminium foil will put it in its place
i have a couple of spare sets but getting them to the states is a pita

At least Jovino had the decency to put their new SN in a place where the originals were never put. Makes the caveat a bit easier for the emptor.

Assembly numbers and "serial" numbers.

Actual "serial" numbers are normally on all the major / "matched" parts. Barrel, Body, rear-sight leaf, nose-cap, etc.

These things were originally assembled in stages, with various gauging, proofing, etc. tests along the way. Parts that were "hand-matched" like body and bolt, for example, had assembly numbers applied. Serial numbers in the approved places were added much further along the chain. Interestingly, bolt-heads were not numbered in the normal course of assembly, however, they were proofed when supplied as spares. The copper bedding blocks are an Australian "fix" for the dubious nature of Coachwood. See also the threaded brass rod pieces reinforcing the fore-end and hand-guard.

The copper blocks are to reinforce the "draws", not so much against recoil, but against "slipping" of the fore-end. Unlike a Mauser, the actual recoil is transmitted from the locking surfaces to the firer's shoulder via the "socket" / ferrule at the rear of the body. That is one of the reasons the extended trigger-guard sits at an angle to bore alignment; it acts as a "wedge" to stop the for-end moving "forwards" during recoil.

It may all sound a bit cheesy, but Commonwealth shooters posted some pretty good scores at 900 yds with these rifles and standard-issued Mk7 ammo over the years.

That also points to the "catch" with these rifles: They were originally BUILT around Mk 7 Ball ammo; not slinky boat-tails or other bullets of different weights, muzzle velocities and profiles.

Not only that, but they were, first and foremost BATTLE implements, essentially bayonet extension poles that could also be used for other work., NOT bench-rest rifles. Grouping acceptance was about 3.5 MOA. Interestingly enough, your basic M-16A2 /A3 has a "factory acceptance" in a similar range. That is the worst -case scenario, but it is "close enough for government work".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Grouping acceptance was about 3.5 MOA. Interestingly enough, your basic M-16A2 /A3 has a "factory acceptance" in a similar range. That is the worst -case scenario, but it is "close enough for government work".

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Often known as 1MoM (Minute of Man)

There's one for sale on gun broker now ,not listed as a Covino special but looks exactly like the ops. Price is up over $900.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFJon

There's one for sale on gun broker now ,not listed as a Covino special but looks exactly like the ops. Price is up over $900.

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Is that what they’re asking or is that what people have bid it to?

Asking and getting are two very different things.

now bid to $1136. Most bidders have between 1 and 5 feedback FWIT.

missing recoil pads eh?

https://imgur.com/BZjudRA
https://imgur.com/IGv5Wsv
https://imgur.com/ZvdKjzK
https://imgur.com/TcOqsVM

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 PM ----------

Im a newbie at this but those serial #'s look off on that gunbroker rifle. The F prefix was apparently '44-45 and that guns marked as a '41?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thrawnformbi

Hello all and thank you for letting me join the forum. I'm new to the Enfield world but have always wanted one of these iconic rifles. Unfortunately, I didnt do enough research and when I saw this rifle in my local shop I immediately decided I wanted it. Spur of the moment will be the death of me.*

I'm unclear on this mismatch of serial #'s and markings. I've done a fair amount of investigating and eventually found a JJCO stamp (rats!) and that immediately sent up a red flag of panic. The damn thing was hiding (see pic) and I didn't spot it in the shop. The condition was excellent and we were all gushing over it in the shop - but now I'm realizing that this was most likely one of their janky rebuilds.*

I'm very familiar with the John Covino shop in NYC and was aghast when I made the connection. It's a terribly run shop these days and a notoriously unfriendly/unhelpful place. I wonder if you all would mind sharing some insights if you have any. I'm not too familiar with Enfields so this is all new territory for me. Im incredibly concerned that its missing the brass recoil pads but I may be wrong. I've put maybe 30-40 rounds through it and it shot wonderfully but I'm concerned about its longevity without them.

Many thanks for all of your help. I made a little wrap for the stock - I'm sure it might offend some purists but I like doing it so what can I say. There are ZERO markings on the stock however so no information is lurking behind that bridle leather.*

PICS BELOW!

https://imgur.com/a/HVKheqi

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John Jovino purchased and imported ALL of the complete rifles and parts in stock - looking at your photos I believe that your rifle was one of the complete rifles - certainly it was a matching barreled action.

Have you removed the leather on the butt stock?

Your serial number, action, bolt and rear sight are all 1941 dated, your fore-end is 1942 dated - this would all be proper for a 1941 Lithgow.

what is the date on your barrel?

Sure did. What looks to be a SLAZ 44 on the butt and a large L towards the brass plate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thrawnformbi

Sure did. What looks to be a SLAZ 44 on the butt and a large L towards the brass plate.

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where is the SLAZ 44?

The L means Long Butt

The SLAZ 44 mark is on the underside of the wrist .

To answer your original question, if you paid a huge amount of money for this rifle thinking it was a new unissued rifle from 1941, then yes you got fleeced. If you paid a reasonable price (even a fairly high price) for a very attractive rifle that's clearly in great shape knowing it wasn't factory new, then you did very well. That rifle is 100 percent refurbished but the best part for you is the bolt and receiver are original matching items and the timber work looks brand new. Some JJCO rifles were complete parts build ups. What markings are on the barrel? Photos of both sides of the barrel would be nice so we can see if its had anther barrel fitted. Try and get a set of recoil plates and have them fitted to the forend. Someone here might correct me, but I'm fairly certain the fitting of the recoil plates was unique to Australian SMLE rifles, in particular they were fitted where Coachwood stocks were used. That pretty stock on your rifle is all Coachwood. If the recoil plates weren't required, I'm sure they wouldn't have fitted them during the war. Speed of production was the order of the day, so why bother fitting recoil plates if they didn't serve a required purpose.

According to the guys who specialize in Lithgow rifles, the recoil plates were not fitted during all wartime production periods.

I've read that before about the recoil plates being omitted from Australian production at some point during the war. I also read they were reinstated after a very short period which would indicate they may have had problems on rifles without them. I can't say for sure any of this is correct, I just recall reading it on the net somewhere. We know how things get twisted around on the net.

Does anyone know when they stopped fitting recoil plates on new Lithgow SMLE's and for how long?

Has anyone put a lot of rounds through a SMLE with a Coachwood stock without recoil plates and had issues or otherwise?

All I know is all Lithgow rifles as well as Lithgow FTR rifles I've seen here is Australia have the plates fitted. I've seen one rifle without them and it was a sporterized rifle in 303.25 that someone built, fitted a new forend and cut it back to a sporter profile. The only other Lithgow rifles I've see without them are very early rifles with Walnut Stocks. Its the JJ CO rifles we all read about that seem to have them missing. As far as I know the Brits didn't use them but they didn't use Coachwood stocks either.

I searched the forums and found an old post "Australian Coachwood fore ends without copper recoil blocks?"

Muffett.2008 wrote

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The woodwork was passed over to Slazenger in November 1941, recoil plates were a standard fitment on Forewoods at that time still being predominately Qld Maple.
When Coachwood became the predominant timber, these plates were still being fitted, but towards the end of 1942 and into 1943, the practice ceased.

With the increase of failure of Coachwood stocks the practice recommenced mid 1943 and continued until the factory ceased repairwork in 1960.
Several different methods of repair were tried from 1930 on, the copper plates being the most cost effective.

The Jensen Report and Tony Griffiths volumes cover part of this information.

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https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=60359

If it were mine, I'd have the plates fitted for peace of mind.

For goodness sake shot the thing and move the story on.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../lMIUEFe-1.jpg