Rock Island 1903, possible NM rifle?

Greetings! I've used a few threads here for answers, but I seem to be in a unique situation so I thought I would ask around here first. I recently acquired what looks like an original Rock Island #386k 1903 with an AV barrel marked 1-19. The stock matches the period as well as the strap. However, this gun has also shown some signs that there is more to it that the internet can answer. For instance, there are two "P" stamps behind the trigger guard indicating it has been rebuilt. Seeing as how the barrel is a '19 it clearly wasn't a WWII reissue. Also, there are four screw holes inline on the receiver consistent with a Unertl scope mount. The bolt isn't blued, and has NS and another illegible stamp on the bottom. The front site does have a stamp on the bottom of it, but I can't tell what it is. It looks like 3 a 5 or the artist formerly known as prince? I've called a few gunsmiths in the area and they said they had no idea what I was talking about, so I'm wondering if anybody here could shine some light on this 1903?

a RIA NM would not have an AV marked barrel. Four screw holes on the receiver only (as you had stated) do not speak for an Unertl mount, but rather a commercial mount.

Yeah, that's what i thought. The AV barrel is what kind of threw me off seeing as how there wasn't any info regarding these receivers. Thanks for the input!

Easiest way to identify a RIA NM rifle is the shape of the bolt handle - it is unique.

Attached picture shows top down:
1. pre WWI SA M1903 NM rifle
2. 1919 RIA M1903 NM rifle (note swept back and then straight down again)
3. 1921 SA M1903 NM rifle

The bolt is swept, but not like any of the bolts pictured. Also, not saying that this particular rifle is a NM, but there were NM rifles with Avis barrels.

No NM with AV barrels.

Any more info on the 1919 Rock Island NM rifles? There is very little info on these.

There is an excellent article on these rifles written by John Beard and C. S. Ferris in Man at Arms in April 2001 which I'd recommend to you. I have one of these RIA NM rifles from 1919, the above pictured bolts are all three rifles of mine.

Good info, I ordered the book today. I'm really just happy to have picked up a good example. I can't wait to take it out to the range.

So, this rifle has been to two local gunsmiths here is what I was told. What information I have collected so far as that Rock Island didn't assemble this rifle (late receiver date 386k), it was likely assembled by Springfield in early 1919 with an NS polished bolt, Avis barrel marked 1-19, blued not parkerized. Stock is 1917 pre-pistol grip, strap is M1907. Whether or not it was a NM rifle couldn't be confirmed because neither gunsmith had ever seen one. But the gun is definitely original and safe to fire and the early NM rifles did have AV barrels despite what somebody posted earlier.

SA received left over receivers from RIA post 2020. In 1919 SA still manufactured 1903 rifles themselves. It would not make sense for them to assemble a RIA receiver with an Avis barrel. Whoever told you this is wrong. I fully agree that you will never find an original NM rifle with an AV marked barrel. Except for 1919 ALL NM rifles were made exclusively by SA. And SA NEVER used any other production barrel, except for their own, for the National Matches. The RIA NM rifles from 1919 all have had RIA barrels.

Hopefully jvbeard will join this topic, he can tell you much better than I can.

Back in 2004, I sent information to John Beard about my Springfield 1903 serial number 1373022 with a SA 7-29 star gaged barrel. Mr Beard replied that the barrel heat lot code C 128 identifies this barrel as a blank fabricated at Rock island Arsenal in WW1 and shipped to Springfield in 1926. It became a NM barrel and was stamped SA 7-29 and star gaged marked. Mr beard also stated that this rifle was used in the 1931 National Matches and was retained in military service and not soldAttachment 104854Attachment 104855Attachment 104856

I concur with RCS. The barrel in his National Match rifle was made using a blank sent from Rock Island Arsenal in 1926.

J.B.

---------- Post added at 08:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:21 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damienslc

... the early NM rifles did have AV barrels despite what somebody posted earlier.

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The source of your information is misinformed. NM rifles were not fitted with AV barrels. Some post-WWI NM rifles, however, were fitted with barrels made using leftover AV steel blanks.

J.B.

Were the post WWI NM rifles which were fitted with barrels made using leftover AV steel blanks then also marked AV on the barrels, or with whoever used the steel blanks (SA)?

Edit: might be for not being native US, but how exactly can I imagine a "steel blank" for a 1903 barrel to be like? Already rifled, already chambered, already milled down to correct outline shape, already threaded, already marked in any way? And would this be different for the AV and the RIA blanks?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

Were the post WWI NM rifles which were fitted with barrels made using leftover AV steel blanks then also marked AV on the barrels, or with whoever used the steel blanks (SA)?

Edit: might be for not being native US, but how exactly can I imagine a "steel blank" for a 1903 barrel to be like? Already rifled, already chambered, already milled down to correct outline shape, already threaded, already marked in any way? And would this be different for the AV and the RIA blanks?

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When WWI ended, Avis had a large quantity of leftover steel barrel blanks. The barrel blanks were government property and were shipped to Springfield Armory. The barrel blanks were in the shape of a barrel, but were slightly larger in diameter and had not been drilled and were not marked. Springfield Armory machined the barrel blanks to size and shape, drilled and rifled the bore, and marked the barrels "S.A./Shell and Flame/date". Springfield Armory also marked an "AV" steel lot code on the side of the barrel underneath the wood. Many of the barrels were fitted to 1921, 1922, and 1923 National Match rifles.

Does that help?

J.B.

Any comments on the pics?

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

"It should be inted out that some AVIS barrels were used on NM M1903's" from Hatcher's Notebook

Other than a receiver in the NM serial range, I see no evidence that you have a Rock Island National Match rifle. The serial number is not listed in SRS as a National Match rifle and the serial number alone is not sufficient to establish National Match heritage.

Your rifle is a collection of mixed parts. The receiver was drilled and tapped by a gunsmith for installation of a sporting telescope and the bolt was polished and the handle turned down to clear the scope. The safety lock was also ground off by the gunsmith to clear the telescope and the stock was notched for the bolt handle by the gunsmith. The stock is from a pre-1917 rifle and the rear sight is from an earlier rifle. The lower band is from an M1917 rifle. The Avis barrel was installed during an arsenal overhaul or perhaps by the gunsmith.

The reference in Hatcher is to the Avis barrel blanks as described in my previous posting. Hatcher had some unflattering things to say about Avis barrels.

J.B.

So, It's probably likely that this isn't a NM rifle so I'll give up on that theory. I did see a "J" and "E" stamping which, when I looked it up, indicated it was assembled by Springfield. I believe it is stamped on the underside of the barrel near the receiver. The stock itself only has two circled "P"s behind the trigger guard which I guess means it's been rebuilt.

Also, the underside of the bolt is stamped "NS" beneath the safety lug, and there is a strange stamping on the underside of the bolt handle where it joins the bolt. Looks like a b0 and what might have been a circle below or above it.

I double checked on the stock, and it's a type 4 post 1917. Pre-1917 stocks didnt have the second recoil bolt, this one does. Probably a bad picture on my part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damienslc

I double checked on the stock, and it's a type 4 post 1917. Pre-1917 stocks didnt have the second recoil bolt, this one does. Probably a bad picture on my part.

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Post number 9 shows two bolts. First pic...

Same bolt, just really bad camera. Also, a correction, the "J E" Stamping looks more like 7 E and it's on the bottom of the receiver.

The second stock bolt in your rifle's stock was added during overhaul. The stock was originally a single-bolt pre-1917 stock.

J.B.

Here are some better pics and a guide to 1903 stocks.

Your stock was originally a 1-bolt stock and your reference book is flawed.

J.B.

Is that a book by Jesse C. Harrison?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Beard

Your stock was originally a 1-bolt stock and your reference book is flawed.

J.B.

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I don't doubt that you know a lot about these guns, even more so than I do, but you're going to have to do a lot better than that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damienslc

I don't doubt that you know a lot about these guns, even more so than I do, but you're going to have to do a lot better than that.

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I post my information on a take it or leave it basis. I have no desire to antagonize or engage in controversy. You are free to choose. And if you seek more information, then kindly ask.

J.B.

You have provided a ton of great information, your work has been referred to me several times. I get that you are not obligated to provide answers, just guidance at your convenience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damienslc

I don't doubt that you know a lot about these guns, even more so than I do, but you're going to have to do a lot better than that.

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I am unsure of how to understand your answer, but kindly wanted to advise that John Beard without any doubt is the most knowledgeable person on the M1903 rifle alive.

Based on your reactions in here it seems that you are seeking for persons who confirm your suspicions and are not open to learn on your rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damienslc

You have provided a ton of great information, your work has been referred to me several times. I get that you are not obligated to provide answers, just guidance at your convenience.

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If you will examine the two stock reinforcing crossbolts closely, you will observe that the nut on the rear bolt is fully seated and clearly staked. The nut on the front bolt is poorly seated and is not clearly staked, thereby indicating installation during overhaul. The seating and staking on original 2-bolts stocks are identical.

J.B.

You are correct, the front bolt is inconsistent with the rear. What about the the wood on the receiver?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damienslc

What about the the wood on the receiver?

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I do not understand your question. Please elaborate or be more explicit.

Thanks!

J.B.

Got this sorted out and confirmed, and I got the answers I was looking for. Thanks for your help, this forum has been awesome!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damienslc

I've called a few gunsmiths in the area and they said they had no idea what I was talking about, so I'm wondering if anybody here could shine some light on this 1903?

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Have you asked your buddy 'The Hound' ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damienslc

this gun has also shown some signs that there is more to it that the internet can answer.

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I see in the other thread you say:

"There is very good documentation that has been published that is contrary to internet opinion."

Could you share your new found source of documentation with us ?
I didn't think so.........

Edited to add greeting, sorry for the rudeness:
Greetings, long time lurker, first time poster. Though I have found the lurking to be very informative. I actually have some questions on this exact topic. I have in front of me a late production (Sn 384XXX) RIA '03 purportedly a 1919 National Match. I would gladly post pictures, but for privacy issues I am unable (rifle is not mine, and owner will not give permission to post pics). Barrel marked "RIA/bomb/2-19", single "P" proof on underside between front band and muzzle, high hump handguard with two spring clips, full park finish with the exception of the rear sight which is blue, graduated to 27 (without volley notch), correct period dished windage and elevation knobs, serrated type 2 trigger, boxed "S.S./1919" (Samuel Spangler) inspection mark on left side of stock, single script "P" on under side of wrist, and smooth buttplate with trap. I'm very limited in what I'm able to disclose beyond the above information, but if any one has information such as a known serial range for the 1919 RIA NM rifles, it would be greatly appreciated. I do have one major concern with this piece though, the parkerizing appears to have a distinct greenish tint, as opposed to what I would expect on a 1919 rifle which I believe should be more of a matte black type park finish. Any info is appreciated and thank you in advace.

Soren, check my post #4 in here: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post463504
If the bolt handle is not swept exactly like this one, it is highly unlikely to be a NM rifle. Also you missed to mention whether the bolt and/or the extractor is blued.

The owner would be able to picture the rifle without showing the full serial or digitally remove parts of the serial. If someone claims to have something very rare but on the other hand is reluctant to show pictures of it, it at least appears weird.