Victory Training Rifle 1942

I've wanted one of these for a while but they were either in rough condition or priced too high or both. This one was at the Auction from Hell as I like to call it but I took a chance showed up about a half hour before it went up and got it for $65 which I thought was pretty decent considering it has a sling on it that might be worth a good portion of that.

It is complete, in decent condition with a little rust on the metal and some wear on the wood but no cracks.

Sling has several markings on it I can read and several I can't, appears supple and uncracked. One end has a clear W.D. with a possible O following. Other end is less clear. There is a small O.O.K. at a slight angle and then Something that starts with L then possibly - F C O and possible date of 1910 or 1918-9. Partial logo with rounded bottom CON? with a distinct H.E. stamped below it. Any sling specialists?

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Hard to imagine they actually used these for training. These were produced by the Parris-Dunn Corporation. The Army ordered 35,000 of these, the Navy with a bayonet lug ordered 300,000 and all contracts were completed. This one is the Army version. After the war they produced an additional 200,000 for the civilian market

I'd say I got a pretty good deal on this. IMA sold one (they only had one) for $295.00. Apparently the Army versions are quite rare. No sling on their either.

Is this the training rifle that the ridiculously fragile plastic training bayonets fitted?

I did manage to pick up one of the plastic training bayonets a few years ago which had been broken in more than one place. I did manage to glue the plastic back together again and make a complete plastic training bayonet, as used by the US Navy.

It is made by the same company but it is not the same rifle. The Navy versions had a flip up rear sight, a bayonet lug and a trigger that actually moved and clicked. Other than that, I believe they are constructed the same. They made 300,000 of the Navy versions so they are a lot more common. Only 35,000 of these were made for the Army.

very nice sir. you got a good deal on that. it's in good shape.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I did manage to pick up one of the plastic training bayonets a few years ago

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Did you ever show us that one?

We still have the same sort of thing now. We had produced C7 rifles using a real rifle barrel, I would think a substandard barrel...and front sight base with the rest cast of hard rubber. They were far heavier and very cumbersome but served a purpose.

Since then we see the fleet diver's school candidates locally using "Redguns" for training painted black. (Carbines and subguns and a few MP5s) Some were also blue but you guys understand...and the paint was beat off them. These things have always had a place in training. I once participated in a bayonet attack course in Ft Lewis Wa with my Canadian unit that destroyed about seven C7 rifles during the company's run through...training rifles would have avoided that.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Did you ever show us that one?

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I'll try and take a few photos to post as soon as I can. I think that these US Navy plastic training bayonets must count as just about the world's most fragile bayonet and explain why they are not often seen for sale. There are more of the scabbards around, which are marked USN, but can be used for other US bayonets. The problem with this bayonet is that it is doubly fragile in that the plastic muzzle ring is far too insubstantial and can easily break/fracture and also the plastic blade can and will break if any significant sideways torque is put on the blade. The blade does have a thin internal steel strengthening plate but this does not extend much beyond the ricasso and will not prevent blade breakage.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

The blade does have a thin internal steel strengthening plate

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Ok, I think I understand the one...uses the long M3 scabbard and it's got a black blade and often busted muzzle ring...supposedly flexed when you pointed a target. Yes, I've seen these. Had the scabbards but not the blade.

Yes, you have to ask what the designers of these plastic training bayonets were thinking of when they designed these items.

low cost??? :D

I'm wondering if the plastic on these was just fine when made but with age became brittle.

Here is my US Navy plastic training bayonet.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....345#post465345

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

my US Navy plastic training bayonet

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Seen...

It's quite a bit of time between the two but I acquired the Navy version of the US WWII training rifles today. This is the more common version. It is also the one that takes the plastic bayonet that was discussed.

This rifle has a bayonet lug, an original sling which is a lightweight canvas type a rear adjustable sight and a trigger that works (makes noise) The trigger mechanism is re-cocked by operating the bolt.

Unfortunately I can't find the other one so I can't do a side by side description of them. This one seems more solidly built and I like that the bolt/trigger makes it more realistic.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../ggQJUkI-1.jpg

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The sling is even a representation of the M1 sling.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I've wanted one of these for a while but they were either in rough condition or priced too high or both. This one was at the Auction from Hell as I like to call it but I took a chance showed up about a half hour before it went up and got it for $65 which I thought was pretty decent considering it has a sling on it that might be worth a good portion of that.

It is complete, in decent condition with a little rust on the metal and some wear on the wood but no cracks.

Sling has several markings on it I can read and several I can't, appears supple and uncracked. One end has a clear W.D. with a possible O following. Other end is less clear. There is a small O.O.K. at a slight angle and then Something that starts with L then possibly - F C O and possible date of 1910 or 1918-9. Partial logo with rounded bottom CON? with a distinct H.E. stamped below it. Any sling specialists?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../34TJrY6-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../6ORHz6x-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../3DxT2aM-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../ghKpouI-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../CM315Ug-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../IqgI1HU-1.jpg

Hard to imagine they actually used these for training. These were produced by the Parris-Dunn Corporation. The Army ordered 35,000 of these, the Navy with a bayonet lug ordered 300,000 and all contracts were completed. This one is the Army version. After the war they produced an additional 200,000 for the civilian market

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You've got a good deal on this. They looks great

I acquired the correct bayonet for the rifle today. I'll get some photos posted when I can take them when the wife isn't around. I don't want her asking questions on this one as I paid a ridiculous amount for a near mint example.

As stated by Flying10uk, this is probably the worst training aid ever concocted. I don't see how you could do anything with this without breaking it. I'm not sure I even want to put it on the rifle for a photo shoot. It works like a US 1903 bayonet, locks in the scabbard in the same way but it is very light. This went straight from the shipping box into my bayonet drawer after a quick look. Everything looks good except the blade which looks like it could break if a fly lands on it and the muzzle ring. Who figured plastic could work on something like this? I'm pretty sure I know exactly where both the training rifles are so I'll do a compare and contrast along with the bayonet.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I acquired the correct bayonet for the rifle today. I'll get some photos posted when I can take them when the wife isn't around. I don't want her asking questions on this one as I paid a ridiculous amount for a near mint example.

As stated by Flying10uk, this is probably the worst training aid ever concocted. I don't see how you could do anything with this without breaking it. I'm not sure I even want to put it on the rifle for a photo shoot. It works like a US 1903 bayonet, locks in the scabbard in the same way but it is very light. This went straight from the shipping box into my bayonet drawer after a quick look. Everything looks good except the blade which looks like it could break if a fly lands on it and the muzzle ring. Who figured plastic could work on something like this? I'm pretty sure I know exactly where both the training rifles are so I'll do a compare and contrast along with the bayonet.

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Yeah, plus the plastic has gotten brittle over the years!

I expect that the plastic bayonet was designed by someone "very clever and highly qualified" but with little practical experience in the real world. The best part of them was the scabbard, hence there are now more scabbards about for this type of bayonet than the bayonet.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

The best part of them was the scabbard, hence there are now more scabbards about for this type of bayonet than the bayonet.

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True that. I'm not so sure it's only job was for the training bayonet but they sure did make lots. There was a cut down crimped back together version of the long one. Here... Bayo Points 6

As promised, photos with the bayonet and comparing the two models. The rifle on the top is the Navy model which is the more common of the two. It is also the more realistic of the two. Much of the Army version is simply painted wood where the Navy model has actual metal fittings.

The bayonet fits snugly. I did not force it on and did not leave it on long. Too concerned with it breaking. I still can't imagine who thought this bayonet was a good idea.

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First time I've seen a set together. As for good ideas, they seem good at the time until they flesh out and then they don't work. Like this one...

I've never seen the bayonet actually mounted on the rifle, I've only seen a few examples of a complete bayonet. I'm sure the rifles served their purpose but not the bayonet.

As promised, the third version of the training rifle. These were made after the Navy contracts were finished. 37,000 Army, 300,000 Navy and then 200,000 civilian drill teams, ROTC, etc. These were probably made during WWII, beginning sometime in 1943.

It appears to be an Army version with a few Navy add ons. The barrel is wood, it doesn't have a bayonet lug or band, the barrel bands are painted on but hard to see as this one is pretty dark. Haven't tried cleaning it yet. The Navy addition is the rear sight. Beyond that, the biggest change is the butt plate lettering. They have an added decal on the butt but this is pretty deteriorated.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../i6EyDYe-1.jpg

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Nice catch, that took a while. Persistence...

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I still can't imagine who thought this bayonet was a good idea.

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The pageantry of fixing bayonets was a big part of recruit parades.

The adoption of the plastic Mark I bayonet, for training use, by the Navy allowed thousands of standard model M1910 bayonets and scabbards to enter the supply system. The Mk I's required use of minimum amounts of war critical steel to manufacture. I have one from each of the three contracts.

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Originally Posted by Tom in N.J.

I have one from each of the three contracts.

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We'd love to see those too...

Yeah, great, two more expensive things to find. LOL. It would be nice to see them, so I know what to look for.

Weird how this works out, never see these and find two in a months' time. This is the WWI version of the US Army Training rifle. This is actually almost like a real rifle, much more so than the other three. Basically, looks and feels like the real deal. Same weight also. This one has no markings that I can fine but is unit marked on the stock. It has been repaired which I may address at some point. Not sure why they did it the way they did. All the parts appear to be there, and it looks like an original sling, no markings on that either. Bolt and trigger work but as you can see, the bolt does not open on any type of action.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../d2eqAkK-1.jpg

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So, one more to go? I wonder what these were actually used for, drill, bayonet training or just parades?

I don't know if there is a number 5. I actually did see a British Enfield training rifle a couple of weeks ago but didn't buy it as it was a couple hundred dollars.

This WWI version was also purchased for the US Navy not the Army and they had a contract for 10,000. It is possible they made up to 1000 more beyond the contract, but they aren't sure. Not all are marked with the manufacturer, and some say these are post contract, but this one is not marked but has a serial number on the stock as well as unit markings.

I took it apart to see what would be needed to repair it. The crack in the upper handguard will be a simple glue job. The bottom stock bolt and the through bolts they put in it will be a lot more difficult. The through bolt is correct but the bolt they used is not and it needs recessed into the stock. The interior is pretty busted up there and will need rebuilt.

The bayonet band is probably an actual 1903 band, seems this is a common replacement on these, so I probably won't do anything with it. Wouldn't be able to find an original in any case.

There's always that one guy. I posted this in a Facebook group yesterday evening and it currently has 40 likes and this one guy:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../MvnMB4h-1.jpg

Typical, "I don't understand why anyone would collect anything except the things I like"...

My newest training rifle. Can't find an example like it anywhere. Initially posted it in Yard Sales but figured I'd add it here. It is made of wood and cast iron. Does not have a butt plate and never did. It is missing a screw on the bayonet lug which should be a normal pan head wood screw. It looks like a prototype to the Paris Dunn Victory rifles, the parts being iron rather than pressed steel. It is also three inches shorter than the Victory's.

I took it apart to see if there were markings inside, none found. I'll need to give it a good cleaning but did not do that today, just put it back together. It did not operate the way it should before taking it apart as the screws were a little loose. Works fine now.

I've done photo image searches as well as standard searches of the entire rifle and parts with no hits at all other than 1903 rifles.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../gW8lOF4-1.jpg

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I'm adding some photos of the internals along with a short video showing how it works. A spring-loaded square is pressed down into the trigger assembly when the bolt is turned. Pulling the trigger then slams it up into the base of the bolt making a large metallic click sound. I also decided to trim the loose strings off the sling to prevent it from getting worse.

https://i.imgur.com/WkRxd8c.mp4

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../RV56jIB-1.jpg


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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

My newest training rifle.

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So this makes number four?

Three official U.S. military, one for ROTC and Drill teams and now this which I can find no information on, so a total of five.