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Is there a reason when forum members can unequivocally determine that a fake part is sold as original, after repeated sales, that SOMEONE cannot bring charges against the seller for fraud? Selling such parts either over email or the Post Office is a federal offense. I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I am new and apologize.
I guess its up to the buyer of the said parts to instigate action towards the seller may get a bit tricky with this site arbitrating in a court of law as if for some reason they are incorrect then the buyer can turn around and decimate ones bank balance along with suing your date off for everything you own, best do your own homework if your gunna go that way. And I do not think asking someone here to state it then you say well this person said on that site and drag them into a possible nasty court action. Not trying to be a kill joy nor stop you doing what you may wish to do but you'll find it hard I think I could be wrong have been before. Good luck which ever way you go.
Part of the problem may be in establishing an acceptable reference point for identifying items as authentic versus fake, followed by establishing a fair value of the items in contention. Then you have to consider if the injuries are enough in the jurisdiction where it happened (ordered? delivered? venue used?). Hence some scammers get away with it.
Not sure what the law is in the States but I have to assume they are not to disimular from the rest of the world, and certainly the UK, especially when it comes to parts for firearms.
Fake car parts and firearms parts must rank pretty high on the target for prosecution list by local authorities. If you are 100% certain, go for it and notify the proper authorities before the person kills someone..............IMHO;)
Most all fake Carbine parts sellers on ebay have been notified and most all turn into sub-humans for being outed. That goes for rollers, or so-and-soSellsFakeHistory, k-whoever in Myrtle Beach. What really irks them is being made to lie again. So please, everyone message them that they are selling counterfeit parts. They sell fakes along with real parts so tweak them whenever they sell fakes.
Doesn't it just come down to what will be enforced? Because I've appeared once before a judge to gain a Writ of Possession for a company and it was granted because it was lawful. However, the judge advised that she wouldn't do it again so don't bring one another forward. Benefit goes to the crooks. Squatters all over the States are stealing from property owners and there is no remediation for lost expenses and missed earnings. You can gain a judgement but collecting is the next step.
The big problem with the so called dealers like the infamous George out west is that he sells you a fake rear sight. You down the road find out its fake and contact him for a refund . He refuses and you say you will take him to court. He would say do you have a recite saying its real? You won't as he doesn't send them. You claim his web site shows those same sights as being real. He would say not really. Just makes it appear to be real in pictures and wording. He is a pro. He has been through all of this time and time again but he is still in business. So to protect yourself look at what is being sold. IF the seller has a bunch of sights that appear to be the type 1 flip sight then something is wrong. Originals are few and far between. This holds true for any carbine parts. Sights, barrel bands early hammers just about any parts. So its buyer beware. I would suggest that if your looking for an original part then study what they look like. Compare and look closely. You can and will see the differences. If your still not sure ask someone who knows. Ask here as all of the good people here will help you out.
Too, if this is a one time thing and you've been stung, so have we all. One time or another we can all tell you about a very poor to foolish deal we've made that's led us to learn. Sometimes you just end up eating it and moving on. Yes, sometimes it costs you but hopefully not too much. A single part is better than falling into a whole carbine for thousands... Lesson learned and move on, look before jumping next time. Guys on here will help you decide as much as possible. Pics for us are invaluable.
Knowledge is king in this hobby, but getting there will certainly be a bumpy, imperfect journey filled with both reward and regret. The best piece of advice I can give for a newb is to take things slowly, ask lots of questions and learn from as many different sources as possible. Finally, there's lot of publications and websites out there to learn from, just remember that NONE of them are the perfect thing.
Buying bolts is a safer prospect.
Normally your right but with old what his face out west he has even make fakes of those. Heck he even has counterfeited barrels from what I have been informed. Nothing is beyond a buck with him.
A bit of practical info about taking things to court.... from a retired cop who spent more than a bit of time as a courtroom observer -usually while waiting to provide a few moments of testimony if (and that's an understatement..) the matter ever came to trial....
Every day across the nation young prosecutors with a stack of cases they want to proceed with are literally strong armed by judges who point out that if they bring every case to trial - nothing will ever get done... The next item is to point out that there are probably a few cases that really are important that the young prosecutor is holding (and actually have solid evidence) so that's when everything remaining works its way through the system as a negotiation... At least that's what I observed down here in paradise, south Florida, over a 22 year span. I doubt that civil actions fare much better (except that every lawyer on every side - earns a good living while both sides get poorer...).
I actually did see "justice" once or twice in all those years.. It was purely incidental to everything else that was going on... This may sound a bit cynical - but it's what I learned to expect over the years.
In the matter of fake parts for carbines - proving the item is a fake won't be easy since there isn't a recognized standard to compare to (just a bunch of very well educated collectors who in the end will lack hard proof that the item involved is a fake....). If and when you establish that a particular part (or parts) aren't what they're claimed to be - how do you go about proving in court that the seller knowingly sold something that wasn't kosher? And of course if backed into a corner, maybe, just maybe our bad actor will, in the end offer to "make it right" but without any criminal action against him (or her) and the civil action might still proceed - if you can afford it...
I'm long retired out of police work (this will be my 25th year in "retirement" although I never retired at all - just went back to fishing for a living...) and glad of it... Justice does occur and more often than not - but not exactly in the legal system that I saw... Of course there's more than one kind of "justice"...
Are you saying brand new reproduction bolts or bolts with altered markings? I can imagine the latter but certainly not the former of those two. If they are the of the brand new reproduction type, I'd love to see some pictures, for my curiosity of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
The judicial system in this country is a dog and pony show run by lawyers for lawyers. The judges are lawyers, the prosecutors are lawyers the defense folks are lawyers. The recording clerks are probably going to school to become a lawyer. The only thing between you and the lawyers is a set of law books that they have and you don't. They make their own hours and days off and dismiss things that they don't want to bother with, or settle because they are too poor or lazy to take it further.
These are dangerous times. When I was a kid TV programs were brought to you by Chevrolet, Wonder bread, Motorola TVs etc. Now the ads are from law firms who are picking the last scraps of meat off the bones of America. Everything is now a felony because it makes people non-gun owners, it requires a lawyer to keep you out of jail and it makes another guest of the state on our dime. It kicks in the probation industry which is another sad story. It's almost impossible but I'd avoid any involvement with these people if you can. You are already paying for it anyway. The worst thing about lawyers? You have to hire one to protect yourself from another one.
As stated knowledge is key!There are enough forums and books that anyone should study carefully before a purchase.
Both new and old bolts are known. If new just look for the oil/water hole in the bottom of the bolt. Those are all post war made. He stamps just about anything you can think of on them and sells them as original. If old then a careful inspection is needed to reveal any of the stampings on the bolt being removed. There are no pictures available but check web sites that sell what there is few of but plenty to see on line in piles.Quote:
Originally Posted by deldriver
So, he's changing the markings, I figured that if anything. Honestly, I haven't seen a tampered with bolt marking in years now, but the ones I remember way back were more on the rarer side. I mean why change the marking on a common bolt that's readily available. Anything with him is possible though I'll admit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
M1 Carbine - Relics at GunBroker.com : 852931254
Pic #23 has a bolt marking of interest. Probably a good source for close shots of the bolts in question, at least from time to time.
There is a very high probability that the courts would refuse to hear cases involving firearms of any kind. And some jurisdictions think the M1 Carbine is an evil assault rifle.
Anyway, you'd have to prove intent to defraud. That being that the seller knew his parts are not "original". And that the parts are not "original". The latter being virtually impossible as most of the assorted small shops, literally hundreds of 'em, that made Carbine parts did not mark them in any way. Which also means that forum members cannot unequivocally determine that a fake part is or is not fake.
There is no such thing as an "all original" Carbine as none of the original manufacturers made all the parts. Some made receivers and nothing else. And a lot of the original production records are long gone. So if anybody tells you they have an "all original" M1 Carbine, they're lying.
Have a look here.
The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbines
My oh my a Sam-T-Bob special. Why the letters on the swivel look sooo fresh. And on the left side of the receiver top are the numbers 09942 is what it looks like. Almost like a Bavarian but I doubt it. But one can rest assured something on it may be from Georgie's private stash of fresh new old parts.
No, I'm ok with using the term all original if it's still as assembled with it's determined original parts. All Underwood or all INSERT ANY MAKER is not technically accurate, but sorta seems like saying clip for magazine. It's a semantic argument and if you tell people (pretty much all general people) at a show that there's no such thing as an all original they're going to run with it and (1) suddenly their cobbled turd is just as good as an actual original. (2) no Carbine is sacred from destruction either since any parts could be on any Carbine. So dummies who acquire one will quote a guy who told them no Carbine was ever all original so I can swap this stock and no harm done since they're all put togethers. That hammer wold be great in my cobbled turd. And now there are 2 cobbled turds instead of one original and one turd. Obviously that's not what actual knowing, informed Carbine collectors understand the phrase to mean, but they don't have the ability to discern what is being said.
Not that many parts weren't marked. Early sears, some safeties, Win front sights and bands. Bands aren't easy to swap so they almost don't count. I understand what is being said inside our group, but anyone can click the internet and find a reason to sacrifice something they shouldn't. In the past year or so I've barely preserved an early, rare original Carbine that a book said shouldn't exist. The book was being cited as a reason to bust it up and correct a turd.
A local shop owner bought a couple of those replicas which I got to see in person. The nearly $4000 Rockola was hand delivered earlier that day. He was in disbelief as I pointed out all the reproduction parts and what the value actually was. He'd already made a verbal commitment to bid on a currently running IBM, so we looked at it on his computer. The auction stated parts as IBM parts. At that time the now used phrase coded with such-and-such codes wasn't being used--which isn't technically defrauding anyone. But the utilized phrase stated was that the reproduction flip, mag catch, safety, band and swivel were actually proper IBM parts. No, that can't be true. It says right there that they're real. Bid if you want, but those aren't USGI parts. He already gave his word to bid and he really did bid. Your bond can only be broken when the other party properly represents the item. Otherwise there is no contract. Stopped in at that shop last week. I don't expect them to stay open unless the very wealthy owner is willing to bleed money to support his hobby because he isn't a savvy businessman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
If there was ever an argument to support the return of dueling, this is it!!Quote:
Originally Posted by lemaymiami
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...giphygif-1.jpg
15 years ago when some guy got another carbine the first order of business was to start taking it apart and being as happy as a clam at high tide over the value of all of the parts. Like Ten says, how many honest carbines were ruined forever. People should have paid more attention to Seth....."Fake"
I just bought a barrel. TheI asked the seller to confirm condition. What did I find once I got it:
The seller milled off the import markings
The seller handstamped maker markings on the barrel
Seller reblued part of the barrel even though it was parkerized
Its a shame...….
I quickly returned it
Just surfing around today and saw a FAKE Irwin Pederson housing. What is looks like was done is they milled off the original makers marking towards the rear restamped with IP and then refinished. Seller is asking close to $800 and the entire housing and his wording is suspect. Pretty sad!
There's one out there that's possibly a Winchester housing that's had constructed of two or more housings faked into an IP one.
I think it was posted on ebay. Possibly a username of Sunrey?
An "]interesting article on counterfeiting and how it affects commerce. One take away, retailers like Amazon and Ebay are more interested in their cut. The ONLY counterfeiting they take somewhat seriously is when it involves trademarked brand names from well known brands whose parent companies have lotsa lawyers willing to sue.
This one is on Ebay and ends later today......Difference seller in NY and you can see the line of finish difference between the rest of the group.....
tenOC; I'm no welder but I can do better than that!:beerchug:
I know. It's terrible.
P51Mustang, Grand Rapids housings have that line on the right side. Some more than others. I believe the step down where the trigger pin is was done in a later process. I won't comment on any refinishing.
This housing is mine that im selling on Ebay . You are wrong on your assessment of this housing . It is perfectly 100% USGI original unaltered IP housing with just dogleg hammer marks . My wording is also correct , I have many of these housings so I am very sure of its originality .Quote:
Originally Posted by P51Mustang
Its got to the point that the majority of people dont know authentic from fake . The humped carbines and fake parts sell for more than authentic carbines and parts. Scumbags like Sam- T- Bob sell fake junk for 3 times what authentic ones go for. So much fakery going on everything is questioned. Sad , ruining a hobby and history. Even worse , the fake stuff is becoming the norm on the web . For every guy on here that has the ability to tell fake from authentic there are a 100 that cant and pay no attention to forums like this . They fuel the scumbaggery , and will continue to. Gets worse by the day. I think Rcycles is on top of his game and knows what is legit and what isnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcycles45
Most people probably never knew how to ascertain real and fake. Collectors and accumulators will buy the repop parts. I'm not so hot on mag catches, safeties and bands and wouldn't buy a new repop part. I've bought 2 used fake flips off CMP before. Advertised as repop. An IP and an S'G' one. Poorer fakes. Obvious to most of us fakes.
I was sent an IP mag catch that was a late modified type that had the face ground off and the front was stamped I-P. That was so bad a fake that I posted it on another forum to show people what that "individual" was trying to pass off as early mag catches with rare markings. He refused to give me my money back. I think most of you can figure out who I'm speaking of.....