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Today I went to my local gun shop, aka my pusher...
They showed me a STG57 and offered it to me for 700€.
That is a great price!!!
I know it chews up brass like I like to chew up t-bone steaks. I used it a few times in Switzerland over 20 years ago.
And so I just dropped the question.
Now I’m not so sure anymore...
What shall I do?
Wow- I cant say what I would do for a 700 euro stgw 57. In the US they range from 10-15k US dollars, Unless someone had a fire. I would buy that in a heartbeat. Forget the brass...
I have to agree, the brass is available as is cheap enough ball ammo. Buy the gun and salvage the brass out after.
:eek::eek::eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by speckles
K???
I’m there!
Pics after of course...we don't see these much around here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
Here she is.
What an outstanding technical piece of perfection...
I never thought I’d end up with this rifle, but now it just feels so right here.
650€. The “pusher” asked me to get it from him asap, so that he could lower the warehouse, so I obliged.
Payment for my 50th birthday, in March.
I feel a tad guilty...
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Nice...let's see you copy that one with a drill press and drawfile.
Not easy...
I never owned one of those 57s, but I had some very fine years with its "stable-mate" the AMT.
Softest-shooting 7.62 NATO rifle I have ever fired. Magazines were scarce; mine came with one and I found another several years later. If fed good ammo, it was a flawless performer.
Yes, the brass cases (NEVER use steel-cased ammo in these), came out with sixteen blackened streaks on them and sometimes a slightly-dented mouth, but a good FLS die in a decent press ironed all that out.
Case length is CRITICAL. If the neck is above "spec" length, there WILL be tears before bed-time. Chambers and throats are quite tight. Too much neck length means the brass will intrude into the throat / leade section of the chamber and be "taper-crimped" into the bullet, with NOWHERE to go at launch. The consequent back-thrust on the roller-"locked" bolt spikes spectacularly and the bolt opens VERY violently, usually accompanied by a case web / primer-pcket rupture and the bottom (and contents) of the magazine being blown out. Saw a less-fussy AMT owner demonstrate that on a range. Very nasty, indeed.
In the "good-old-days" here in Oz, I reloaded a LOT of brass that I fed through my AMT and HK-41. Inspect, clean, size, TRIM (and chamfer), re-fill and carry on.
Because the design has a "different" extraction / ejection system, the brass often seems to leave the rifle BASE first. Until I scored a genuine Case "buffer" for the H&K, all the empties from that rifle would get a bit dented. BOTH systems were built from the ground up to fire MIL_SPEC ammo, not weird squibs or HOT loads. However, they seem pretty tolerant of a 150-ish gn. soft-point hunting load that closely duplicates Ball ballistics. I used both platforms for hunting feral pigs and goats. Not much brass got recovered on those fun trips!
SiGs are wonderful things; I'm still pining for mine.
"Forgotten Weapons" does the PE57 (semi-only) variant of the StG-57:
SIG PE-57: Swiss Roller-Delay! - YouTube
The slow-mo shows the interesting ejection.
The "Swiss" chamber with the "ringed" shoulder is something not found on the 7.62 NATO AMT / SiG 510-4. If the cases are brass, and can be reloaded.....
Nice score. really nice score. You are lucky to find that weapon for essentially nothing... see if you can find the scope and mount since you are on a roll. The Kern scopes are extremely uncommon.
There is everything here. Switzerland is just around the corner. Actually, they are not very expensive here...
Just out of curiosity, how do they down-convert these rifles from fully automatic to semi automatic in your part of the world?
I can see a stud welded on the receiver in your photos that prevents the fire control lever from moving past Einzelfeuer (single fire) to Mitrailleuse (Rapid Fire). Is this the limit to the modifications to the gun much like the British did with the SLR, or have they also deprecated the auto-sear and other elements of the fire control group?
It's interesting the way that in the US we can't have any down converted full auto guns, the receivers would have to be chopped up for import.
Hi Hunter, look at this interesting video from Bloke on The Range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hcompton79
At minute 29:30 approximately it explains what has been done to “demilitarise” the rifles.
Mine is exactly like that.
I guess they are modified in Switzerland directly, and sold as civilian versions from the beginning.
SIG Sturmgewehr 57: overview, shooting and mechanics - YouTube
Ah, I see. Largely similar to how one would go about building a Semi-Auto gun from a parts kit here, albeit without the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" rule employed in the United States.
It's interesting that in the US there is a stigma that European gun ownership is practically non-existent, because the laws are particularly strict. However, as this example shows that is not always the case and sometimes the reverse is true.
Anyway, Good luck and happy shooting with your rifle. It looks like a fantastic machine.
I took her out on Saturday.
Didn’t shoot much because I had a minor issue due to the reloaded ammo and, since I don’t like to have live ammo stuck in the chamber (I took off the stock, the trigger assembly and then hammered with a wooden mallet on the charging handle to get the round out), I decided to stop and go back to the range with factory ammo next time.
But...hey, that rifle is really special.
It is like shooting a .22 LR, no recoil at all.
The brass is so hot, that it melted the net of my Caldwell case catcher.
Trigger is bad, but surely possible to improve.
The front sight post is very wide.
I shot this one after shooting my ultra gorgeous Peruvian 1909, so I noticed all the mentioned little things, but in general, I liked her a lot.
Certainly I won’t be shooting her much, but every now and then...
I'm dying to know what the ammo problem was, not enough chamfer on the outside of a trimmed case mouth? Wouldn't chamber correctly? Need a small base sizing die? Wish I could have been there to see and help... Otherwise, it works fine.
I was shooting mine and thought the trigger was heavy as well, so I use the winter trigger now and it feels and shoots better for me. No idea why..
Jim,
I had the bolt almost completely closed, just a tad back still.
The hammer would hit the striker, but that was not hitting the primer strongly enough, it just nicked it.
What "****ed me off" a bit is that when I got the bolt back, the bullet was stuck in the barrel, just a tiny bit, and got loose from the case.
All rounds were fully resised, I checked the length of each of them, so I'm sure that the ammo was ok. 76,0 mm is the same length of commercial ammo, so it should be perfectly ok.
I too thought about the chamfer, which might be the only thing left...
I'll take off the primer when I'm back home on the week-end and check if maybe it just went off, but the powder did not ignite, but I don't really believe it.
All that came out was good, expensive N140.
Speckles, I hate to say that I just didn't think about that.
Next move!
Saturday, if everything works out well, I'll be back at the range, but I guess I'll have to scratch another itch: my Carcano 91. And then my Persian Mauser...
But the FASS/Stgw 57 will be back soon.
If the primers were fired then the powder should have...still sounds like an overall length thing, bullet in LEAD or commencement... Would have like to watch. Good thing they didn't go if it were out of battery a bit...
Hallo Ovidio, I agree with Jim. It is not sufficient to rely on OAL for really precise bullet seating. Variations in the ogival curve between different types and (on the sub-tenths of a mm level) maybe even between batches of the same bullet will affect the precise seating depth at which the bullet contacts the transition cone a.k.a. throat.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I suggest that you take a couple of your reloads, ink over the contact area with a felt pen, and load/unload them in the rifle by hand. If there is any marking of the inked area, then you know that your bullets are touching the lands. All mechanical processes - bullet manufacture and bullet seating - have tolerances, and if the bullets are too close to the lands (which in my view is anything under 1/10 mm) then some will be touching, some will be free, and the variations in pressure will affect the grouping.
My guess is that if you seat the bullets to be at least 0.25mm off the lands performance will be improved.
Give it a try!
Patrick
Yep...that's what I'm thinking too. You will likely feel them touching the commencement anyway, they'll stop hard before they should. Too, bullets that touch the commencement have a higher pressure at firing...so I understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
By the way, I think it's leade not lead at the commencement...someone will correct me I'm sure...
Thanks guys.
I’ve been in Germany the whole week and will be back home tomorrow evening.
All the time with that thought nagging at me. I really want to understand what happened.
But Saturday, after showing the company to a few Austrian customers, I’ll go with my heir to the range with our old Carcano and the Persian Mauser. Fass will be nect week again.
But I’ll update you.
Finally I remembered to take pictures of the infamous round that got stuck.
It is not dented at the shoulder, so it really got blocked before completely chambering.
The striker touched the primer with some authority, not enough to get it going, luckily.
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Can't help but say it has to be too long. The mechanics speak for themselves. It needs to be shorter so the bullet doesn't touch commencement. The shoulders of the case don't look sharp either, like this hasn't been sized...but I can see your trim marks at the mouth.
Fact is, I sized, trimmed and chamfered each round. Then I use a manual scale and also put the powder manually in each and every round.
After seating the bullet, I measure again each and every round, allowing a maximum of 1/10th of a mm of tolerance.
That's the reason I decided to put everything aside and keep shooting with the Mauser.
I really could not understand how a problem like that could have occurred.
And, sincerely speaking, I still don't get it.
The shoulders have just touched the chamber. It can be seen, but it is miles away from the way the other cases look like after being simply chambered, let alone fired.
Someday I'll take her out again and fire the commercial S&B rounds. They have the exact same length of mine, but the brass is new.
Let's see...
Luckily I don't fret about semiautos.
I got the field manual of the Fass57 from a Swiss guy who writes on our Italian Milsurps Forum.
Interesting.
I also found the complete German manual.
Now you guys have an excuse to start learning Dante's magnificent language.:lol: And Goethe's!:lol:
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What bullet were you using?
GP-11 ammo has an "unusual" bullet that has a VERY short parallel section and the ogive is a Secant type. Thus, it starts decreasing in diameter immediately in front of the neck of the case.
When I bought my K-11, the only GP-11 ammo around was "collector" ammo, no bulk shooting ammo around, here in Australia. It is still hard to find in shootable quantities at a realistic price.
So, I loaded up a few cases with Sierra 155gn Palma Match bullets that I used in my .308" Win chambered target rifle. So far, so good.
It got interesting when I passed this information on to a friend who had bought a K-31 from the same collection.
Next thing, he asked if I could come and look at a "problem". He had made up some dummy rounds for testing and now had a bullet stuck in the leade.
The K-11 has a LONG leade to accommodate the older GP-90, round-nosed bullets that were the standard until 1931. So, The K-11 has a long leade, even though it was introduced with the GP-11 with its MUCH more streamlined bullet.
Thus, If you are loading for a K-31 or a PE-57, you need bullets with a SECANT ogive, like some of the Hornady bullets, exotic "VLD" types or, in my part of the world, the Australian -made BJD 155 grain HBC .308" target bullet. These also work fine in the long leade of the K-11 but have a fairly long bullet "jump".
Can you get GP-11 projectiles from Switzerland for reloading?
I gather Ovidio when you resized it was FLS'ing the cases and not just neck the only thing I could think may have happened is you short stroked the press by a phhhhtinth of an inch (Less than a gnats fart) and it has not bumped the shoulder back causing the shoulder to be forced into the chamber but keeping the weapon just out of battery. If all the other cases worked flawlessly then this one well perhaps just missed out and having the projie come out in the lede implies the COAL is to long I would use a dummy round loaded to what you did previously and soot the projie with burning camphor (Mothballs don't do it inside it will soot your nice white walls it arcs the wife up bloke) then very carefully single load it and close the bolt reasonably gently on it then carefully extract it. If it again sticks in the bore then load the projie again put a comparator on it adjust the COAL by 2-4 thou and go again until you get the marking just visible on the ogive I would then give the projie a 30-40 thou jump (Well decrease the OAL by that) and see how that goes. The comparator (Or a Comparator nut if you have one is the way to go to much variation measuring from the meplat.)
You may find the accuracy gets better as all of the rounds may have been slammed into the lede causing mis-aligment of the projie to the bore and a crooked bullet wont fly that straight.
I may be completely off course but thats what I am taking away from this
Hi Bruce, thanks for this very interesting information.
It seems he had the same problem I experienced at the range.
I was using plain and simple Hornady HPBT 168 grs. bullets, and they surely are not with secant ogive.
In the pictures attached you see the Hornady bullet in the middle.
Left is a new monolithic 160 grs. bullet for long range shooting, from a new Italian company (I'll try them in the K31 and M1917), and right there is a classic S&B FMJBT 180 grs.
I also have the 147 grs. S&B. Similar profile, just shorter.
Looking at the shape of the bullets, maybe the monolithic could be ok.
In the K31 I never had trouble with the S&B bullets. I still have to try the Hornady, but I don't think there will be any difference, as they are pretty similar.
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Thanks Cinders. That was on my to-do list. Maybe that rifle just needs slightly shorter boolits...
Wow that is a long pill Ovidio that 160 grainer I would be real careful not to get into compressed loads with it:eek:
That is the reason why I want to try them in very solid rifles.
But you got me a bit scared, damn...:lol:
Its all good Ovidio your not an inexperienced reloader so know the form.:thup:
Yep. I‘ll measure the oal again and decide what to do.
Worst case scenario, I‘ll cut the loads a bit and see.
The difference in length is not a small thing...
But I‘ll test in very very sturdy rifles. Someday...;-D
Gentlemen, this is an exercise in logic.
The GP 11 came from the same munitions house in 1898 as the new run GP11 ammunition is being made and currently distributed among shooting clubs in Canada and in Switzerland.
The only change that was ever made and that cartridge was in the early 70s when they changed the coagulent.
The seat depth for the GP 11 cartridge is set approximately two thousands off the lands. When you consider that it worked in the G 11, the Kadet, The K 11, the K 31, the ZFK 55, the PE57 and the MG 51 machine gun, (the only one left in the Swiss Army using this round) why would there be any question whatsoever about powder and seat depth unless you are reloading.
If you are reloading and are unsure about any of these factors, please go here
FAQ | Swissproductsusa and read "What is the process for reloading the 7.5 x 55 cartridge?" This is a specific reloading process dedicated to our cartridge only.
As for brass fired from the PE57, Resizing twice might be okay but as soon as you move on to 3rd time you are rolling the dice. Those striations that you see in the fired brass are the areas that have sunken into the chamber striations that allow the rifle to function on a delayed blowback. They are a substantially weakened area, and please take my word for it. After many hundreds of rounds downrange through a number of different PE 57's In the past 50 years, Second and third round full length brass sizing's left us with plenty of ruptured longitudunal separarions along the striations. You might get away with it once or twice, but it will catch up with you if you're not careful.
How are your hands, Pierre? Doing ok?
Thanks for asking. I lost my ability to type so I switched to one of these new Dragon speech to writing programs and it seems to work pretty well. I just have to be careful how I enunciate things. Ma isn't so sure it was a good thing since he says I don't tend to shut up anymore ! LOL
one thing it has allowed me to do is to begin transferring all of my archives from the old Swiss rifles.com website to our new Swiss products USA website. I'm trying to get everything I've ever written collected in one spot before I'm unable to speak. LOL... But again, Ma doesn't think that would be a bad thing. LOL
Tough gal Ma, isn’t she?:lol:
Wun tuff gal, for sure. LOL
I sinned against my StGew. 57...
Swapped it for this one, an M39.
I’m just not into semiautos...
Forgive me gentlemen!
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eewww
I would have thought a fairer trade for the SiG would have been a TKIV-85.
Like this:
7.62 Tkiv 85 - Wikipedia
Not your usual paint-stirrer!
Here the SGew57 goes for about 750-850 €. The M39 starts at that point.
But fact is, I just don’t like semiautos...
I’m desperate.
Am about to sell also my Stg58...
Got a good offer.
Very nice looking rifle IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio