Early delux Ross Commercial Rifle?

Looking for help identifying this rifle, also does anybody have parts to get her back up an running?

I see the early style stamp on the receiver, the serial number 327 is in all sorts of parts and many differences from a model R sporter that I own. This one doesn't have a hole in the bolt handle, the mag well is different, the cocking lever has strong knurling etc.

Is this the 327th rifle made by Ross or is the apparent serial number on the mag floor plate more realistic?

Any thought/info would be greatly appreciated.

Jim

Thats 40 Grs Cordite to a 320 Grs Bullet on the floorplate thats the way I see it

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Originally Posted by Jim_ish

the apparent serial number

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You seem to have missed showing us that one...

Right you are. Sorry, here is the possible serial number on the floor plate and then some of the 327 stamps.

I will mention I think the barrel may be been switched. It is only finger tight and is missing the rear sight. Caliber is smaller than 303 so I am guessing 280 Ross.

JimAttachment 104750Attachment 104751Attachment 104752Attachment 104753Attachment 104754Attachment 104755Attachment 104756

Jim

The front sight appears to be a military model with the hood reversed. The action appears to be a version of the 1903 pattern, with the magazine cut-off release on the right side of the stock above the trigger guard. The Hartford Connecticut inscription is very interesting. Nice engraving - possibly a presentation piece. Good luck - here's hoping you fell down the kybo hole, and came up with a mouth full of diamonds.

Or...is it an assembly number?

Sorry to add to the muddle, but I went down the rabbit hole because of the proof stamps on the floor plate. I thought it may have originally been barreled/chambered for the 375 Flanged Nitro-Express (right charge, wrong bullet weight), and came up with this from Imperial War Museums - ROSS MODEL 1903 SPORTING RIFLE .370 EXPRESS:

Ross Model 1903 sporting rifle .370 Express | Imperial War Museums

The upper hand guard has no place on a commercial sporting rifle.

Hmm, very interesting. I will say both the hand guard and stock have the same 327 stamp as all the metal parts and I mean almost all the metal parts are stamped.

So, did the British military purchase some number of 1903 models in 375 and this might be one of them?


Thanks for all the info.


Jim

Reading more and contemplating more. First I mis-typed, so this was a 370 express (probably, based on loading data) which was probably made as a 370 in England?

No military provenance BUT the upper handguard clearly came with the rifle from the factory so maybe a commercial special order?

Jim

Interesting. Seems to be an early 1900/03. Would have been 370 Express originally.

Barrel looks to be later military maybe? Are there any rear sights?

Is the barrel turned in all the way? Is it tight? Does the bore look to be 370?

No rear sight, no not screwed in all the way. For sure not a .370 bore, it is smaller.

I think the barrel is a replacement.


SO, is there any value left? Doesn't sound like a project I am looking to get into. Too much going on with the missing trigger, bolt stop, rear sight & wrong barrel.

Jim

Probably .303 British. Be worth something to someone. Where are you located?

I live in Macomb Michigan, about half way between Detroit and Port Huron.

Jim

From Wiki ~ Following was Model 1903 Sporter some of these rifles were made in Hartford, Connecticut, but most (200 units, made from spare parts) were assembled at the brand new fabricating plant in Quebec City. Some of the Pattern 1903 Sporting Rifles were made in the .370 Express calibre, while some prototype chambered for .450/.500 Nitro is known to exist.[15][16]

Now my skew wiff brain thinks back to the early part of the British WWI war where they used express rifles to punch or bash out the loop holes of the German trenches it was not really liked by the troops in the trench given the amount of dust generated by these rifles when they discharged sorta saying here I am.
The Number 327 could be of military origin so all the parts stayed together for that rifle after checking its serviceability whether they stamped them with the broad arrow don't know.
May seem fanciful to some here but anything is really possible from 105 years ago!

Wrong side of the border for me.

327 is most likely the serial number.

This rifle was built too early to be military, except maybe the donor barrel.

Understand the build date Ax but in very early WWI the British seconded heavy game rifles to belt in the loop holes of the Germans as they were woefully equipped to deal with them and the 303 did not have the juice nor the available A.P round to deal with the said plates, whether they got them from the dominions I am not sure but there would not be the need for say a 400 N.E or say a 370 for that matter on the U.K mainland. Although they may not have told us that elephants wandered around Piccadilly or Hippo's were seen at Cowes near Portsmouth.............in the day!!!!!:madsmile::lol:

Here's a snippet the Germans discovered in WWI that if they reversed the projectile in the 8mm round so that the base went first it worked as sort of a squish round against the landships the British fielded and effectively penetrated into the crew compartment (well the hot lead core did) even if it was molten and sprayed out it would still upset your day, as the armour was only really boiler plate and not like WWII tank armour plate.
I cannot remember where I read it or who even first thought of that idea but have not forgotten it, now that really is outside the box.

Examples have been found in the the British trenches of .303 cartridges with the bullets inserted backwards, to aid in the penetration of the light sheet iron used in the German trenches. I remember reading an article where the author loaded cartridges with the bullets inserted correctly, and reversed. There was virtually no difference in point of impact between the two, but the pressure spike from the bullets loaded backwards was certainly a cause for alarm - approaching or exceeding proof loads.

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Originally Posted by Jim_ish

Looking for help identifying this rifle, also does anybody have parts to get her back up an running?

I see the early style stamp on the receiver, the serial number 327 is in all sorts of parts and many differences from a model R sporter that I own. This one doesn't have a hole in the bolt handle, the mag well is different, the cocking lever has strong knurling etc.

Is this the 327th rifle made by Ross or is the apparent serial number on the mag floor plate more realistic?

Any thought/info would be greatly appreciated.

Jim

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YOU LUCKY B******!!!

I officially envy the hell out of you.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Understand the build date Ax but in very early WWI the British seconded heavy game rifles to belt in the loop holes of the Germans as they were woefully equipped to deal with them and the 303 did not have the juice nor the available A.P round to deal with the said plates, whether they got them from the dominions I am not sure but there would not be the need for say a 400 N.E or say a 370 for that matter on the U.K mainland. Although they may not have told us that elephants wandered around Piccadilly or Hippo's were seen at Cowes near Portsmouth.............in the day!!!!!:madsmile::lol:

Here's a snippet the Germans discovered in WWI that if they reversed the projectile in the 8mm round so that the base went first it worked as sort of a squish round against the landships the British fielded and effectively penetrated into the crew compartment (well the hot lead core did) even if it was molten and sprayed out it would still upset your day, as the armour was only really boiler plate and not like WWII tank armour plate.
I cannot remember where I read it or who even first thought of that idea but have not forgotten it, now that really is outside the box.

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Check "Sniping in France". Hesketh-Pritchard personally canvassed his fellow affluent sportsmen in England while on leave to round up DG rifles for use against the German sniper plates.

As for the reversed bullet question, I've actually watched it tested (on film). In one of his WWI documentaries, Andy Robertshaw scoffed at the idea, but they loaded a ball round backwards and fired it at a plate that represented the armour of a WWI tank (not very thick.) It blew a clean hole right through it. The regular ball ammo flattened and caused interior spalling, but no hole. I would've bet money against it, but it works. There's a logical scientific explanation, I know, but I can't imagine it.

The real tragedy here is that whatever moron removed the barrel (any barrel that doesn't have the side blown out of it can be restored in some form) has destroyed some history in the process. Looking at the engraving, and taking into account the time of manufacture and other markings, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the missing barrel didn't bear the name of Charles Lancaster of London. Lancaster was the official British agent for Ross in the early days and licensed to build rifles using Ross actions, many of which were stamped with the New Haven logo. This probably started life as a .370 Nitro Express English-built sporting rifle, possibly for an African hunt. And I still envy you.

Yep, too bad the original barrel is gone. The fellow I got this from purchased it at a local auction (along with a few others) about 20-25 years ago and then it just sat in his safe till a week or so ago when I came along.

Thanks for this input, makes it more fun!

Jim

Jim_ish

Just for your information: the .375 Flanged Nitro Express 2 1/2 in. and the .370 Flanged Nitro Express are the same cartridge. The former (and more common) is loaded with a 270 gr. bullet at a nominal pressure of 14 tons. The latter is loaded with a 320 gr. bullet at a nominal pressure of 17 tons. Also known at the 9.5x63mmR (9.4x63mmR). The 270 gr. load, manufacture by Kynoch, is still available - but prohibitively expensive.

You have a conundrum. I don't know how much you are into for the rifle, but you will have to decide to either to cut your losses and sell (hopefully, not at a loss), or build yourself a very nice personal rifle. Its unfortunate you can't get the original barrel. If your were to re-barrel, you might want to consider the .405 Winchester, 16.5 tons nominal pressure, and cartridges and brass cheaper and more readily available. Also, contemporary to the rifle. .303 British, .370 Flanged Nitro Express and .405 Winchester all have the same nominal dimensions. Don't even consider the .280 Ross. 28 tons nominal pressure.

Cheers

I have Pritchards book Sniping in France interesting times the Brits certainly learned a hard yards catch up game.

If you rebarrel the Ross selection of a barrel might align with your type of shooting and the availability of cases the N.E stuff even modern BB stuff can set you back a pretty penny per case but that is a very nice rifle sir, a keeper if it were in my gunsafe as once you have sold it its gone and the chances of finding another well get a shovel and start looking for rocking horse do-do's that would be easier..........:dunno:

I'm with NORTHOF60. I'm all for rebarrelling and rebuilding this in it's original glory. The .280 is not an option; there's a reason the 1910 has a huge chamber. I'd prefer something faster than the .405, but it is original - and who could argue with Teddy Roosevelt?

Ask the fellow you bought it from what he remembers about the auction: were there parts as well? Find the auctioneer if you can and ask, with photos in hand. Some people have amazing memories, some do not.

The barrel was probably in the same house the rifle was before it went to auction. Bubba probably thought, "I'll jus' try this 'ere .303 barrel on 'er..." "I can always put the other one back..." And then Bubba's obese form drops dead with TV dinner in hand one day and Mrs. Bubba sends his stuff to the local auction with a sigh of relief, where maybe the auctioneer knows what a rifle barrel is, or maybe not, and no one can be bothered to sort through Bubba's stuff and put like with like because they've got some repo'd cars to auction right after them guns 'n all. :ugh:

If you're in a small town, ask, ask, ask, and your may find that barrel yet. It's worth the trouble.

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Originally Posted by NORTHOF60

the pressure spike from the bullets loaded backwards was certainly a cause for alarm - approaching or exceeding proof loads.

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Very interesting info, didn't hear that before...

Wouldn't be a cause for any concern in a Ross MkIII. People have filled the barrels with pebbles and sand, filled a case with pistol powder and still not blown one up.

This Sgt. Carey was apparently taking no chances with soft catridge cases sticking in the chamber and "emptied his oil bottle into the breach" before a rapid fire incident.

Oiled cases have little or no cylinder wall adhesion, enormously increasing thrust on the bolt. With normal case adhesion there is very little backwards thrust on the bolt, according to experiments done at RSAF Enfield.