No1 MkIII... I think?

Long story short, a friend sold me what I believe is a 1916 No1 MkIII for few bucks. It was missing many parts, and had the barrel cut down with a No5 style flash hider added and "No5 Jungle Carbine" stamped in the barrel.

I have started buying parts to restore it to more of a factory looking No1. (I know it wont have the same value as an original, but its more of a fun project and less about the value.) Some one had welded a notched bar across the ring on the receiver to act as sight when the one on the barrel was removed. But once I cut off the notched bar, I could see that the ring (dont know what it is called) is not one piece going across, but two separate pieces with one side having a screw going into the top.

None of the pictures diagrams show any look like this, nor can I find a part listed for it anywhere. Any insight as to whats going on? Was this normal on some rifles, there doesn't appear to be any cutting marks like the center section was cut out.Attachment 105255Attachment 105256Attachment 105257

No, that screw isn't normal, it was placed in there to hold the rear sight. They are normally solid there and that's for charger loading. Another thing to fix...

It's a Santa Fe Arms 1960's conversion of an SMLE to a so-called "Jungle carbine". They used a modified Mk.2 rear sight from a No.4 and the axis pin/screw is a sear screw from the SMLE. They butchered tons of them.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

It's a Santa Fe Arms 1960's conversion

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I didn't want to get into that. I couldn't see putting this one back to original look, far too much work and outlay. That charger bridge is a death knell for me.

Numrich had later charger guides, need to have shrink rivets to install the correct way. Evans Screw also use to install charger guides if still available

Thanks for the information. I know it'll be a lot of work to convert it back, but it really is more of a project to kill time. It will probably never be as complete or nice as an original, but to me at least, it'll be nicer than it was. I have gotten a barrel replacement and parts that were missing in the safety lever assembly. I guess trying to locate a charger guide is next on the list.

"...be a lot of work to convert it back..." It'll be a big pile of money too. It's mostly all the wee tiny bits and pieces that are both scarce and pricey. The assorted sling swivel etc screws run about $2.75 each.There are no more stock sets either.
The charger guide has been cut. The charger guide is part of the receiver and isn't usually found as a separate part.
"...have gotten a barrel replacement..." It's absolutely essential the barrel be installed by a smithy who has the correct tools. Primarily the action wrench. Using anything else can twist the receiver into an oddly shaped paper weight.
Do not let him buy headspace gauges either. Those can be rented. If he buys 'em you pay for 'em and he keeps 'em. And he'll need a handful of bolt heads at $15.50 each for a used, stripped, one. No. 1 Rifle bolt heads don't have numbers. It's trail and error until one works.

Brian, the Santa Fes had new made L flip sights. Springfield Sporters ended up with a bunch of them. They were painted black and made of aluminum.

Interesting. They must have used both because I've seen modified, original Mk.II sights too.

There should be criminal prosecution for committing such an atrocity to a war veteran.

I wish you luck on your endeavor but as been said it's going to be an expensive project. If it shot well I would have just left it alone.

I used to think that such damage was unthinkable but as I’ve got older I’ve realised that most of this surplus was regarded as cheap and disposable in the past. They were regarded as tools by most and got treated as such.

My 42 jeep was a reasonable restoration project but I couldnt figure out why someone would do the mods they did. But, those mods meant it was being used and is probably the reason it exists today. I hate to say it but sometimes bubba is needed to keep some of these veterans going.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

It's a Santa Fe Arms 1960's conversion of an SMLE to a so-called "Jungle carbine". They used a modified Mk.2 rear sight from a No.4 and the axis pin/screw is a sear screw from the SMLE. They butchered tons of them.

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Did the Santa Fe arms examples originally come from the huge Parker Hale/ Interarms buy Brian?

I really don't know but since it was well prior to 1968, there's a pretty good chance the majority were imported by Interarms. They managed to buy the vast majority of the war reserve No.4's in the 1980's from both the UK Mod and South Africans. I used to get a chuckle listening to all the exspurts at gun shows poo-poo them because they were import marked, (post 1968). The fact remains that the majority of No.4 service rifles released prior to 1968 were culled because something failed the gauging standards. They usually sported British commercial proofs too which no one ever complained about. Go figure.

Well, I have finished my project rifle. All in all I am very happy with it, it certainly isnt as nice as an origional no1 would be, but I think it is a lot better than it was from when I bought it, and most importanly, its in shootable condition now. The front upper handgaurd is either a new piece or unsed, so it doesnt match the other pieces exactly in color, but it is close. It was one of the only ones I could find that still had the narrow parts that go around the rear site block, most hand gaurds for sale had them broken off. I never was able to find a charging guide, so I cut a piece of square tube to length, welded it in place, and filed the weld flush. Not the most ideal solution, but I like it better than haveing a charging bridge that is cut into two pieces. All in all, I have 500 to 600 in it for the rifle and parts, which is not to much more than I see them going for down here. Thanks to everyone here that helpt to answer my previous questions, I really enjoyed this project.
Attachment 107408

Looks presentable now, thanks for coming back and finishing up this thread...showing us the rifle after.

Looks really good to me! Most of those rifles didn't survive as "original" so yours just has a new "experience." It still has its history, but with a few new parts. If you wanted it be more original, you could swap out the cocking piece for the rounded version which would be more "original" for that model.Enjoy shooting and sharing it!

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Originally Posted by Singer B

Looks really good to me! Most of those rifles didn't survive as "original" so yours just has a new "experience." It still has its history, but with a few new parts. If you wanted it be more original, you could swap out the cocking piece for the rounded version which would be more "original" for that model.Enjoy shooting and sharing it!

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Sorry for the newbie questions, but when was the squared cocking piece introduced? I see English smles with the rounded version dated later than Australian smles that have the squared one. I understand they may be mixed, but I'm still curious to know.

Hi Tromas,

I love the work you've done to the rifle. Definitely a huge improvement, and well worth the effort IMO, even if it can be expensive. You may have seen my post about a similar "un-economic" No 5 carbine restoration. With that in mind, do you still have the Santa-Fe flash hider from your rifle? If so, would you sell it?
Cheers,
Burton

The "model" marking is interesting, as well.

My old eyes see what looks like a "equals" sign after the "lll".

That would suggest that this is one of the Mk lll* rifles that were re-graded to proper Mk lll spec. by putting all the "fruit" back on and striking out the "*". This apparently happened in the 1920's.

Any other ideas out there?

The only fruit put back on was the cutoff

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

The "model" marking is interesting, as well.

My old eyes see what looks like a "equals" sign after the "lll".

That would suggest that this is one of the Mk lll* rifles that were re-graded to proper Mk lll spec. by putting all the "fruit" back on and striking out the "*". This apparently happened in the 1920's.

Any other ideas out there?

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I've see pictures of two other smles marked with what looks like an equal sign through the stars, one of which was advertised as one of the re-graded rifles. I believe both had cuttoffs. That's the limit of my experience with that, and I cannot attest to the validity of either rifle, although I doubt 3 would be marked the same way if it were not an official marking.

It was an official marking, or certainly it was widely used. There are lots of the ex-Italian Navy SMLE's around in the UK at the moment; they've been imported by the hundreds over the last few years, & a great many are marked like this. As has been said above, Mk3* rifles were retro-converted back to Mk3's in the inter-war period. I gather the RN was quite keen on this (& many of the 'Italian batch' rifles bear a letter 'N' stamped into the LHS of the butt socket just below the safety catch). The definitive change was the machining of the cut-off slot & fitting of the cut-off, but I have also seen some rifles with windage adjustable rear sights as well, although I suspect that they may just have been what was available at the time.

BurtonP,

Thank you! I do still have the flash hider and barrel that came on the rifle, allthought it seems someone had cut off the ears that go on either side of the front site and the bayonet lug at some point in its previous life.