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I recently picked up a new Enfield that came with a 50 cal can full of ammo. I have searched and searched. I find all kinds of information but nothing definitive about it being corrosive or not. I would appreciate any and all help. The Sellier & Bellot is in a box so I included a picture.
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The "DA" headstamped stuff is WW2 Canadian, and is both Mercuric-primed and "corrosive". Quick guide; if the primer cups are copper-coloured, the primers will be Mercuric-based. The corrosive thing? Treat ALL ammo as corrosive until proven otherwise; then clean properly anyway.
The S&B uses Lead-based primers and MAY be corrosive.
As an Australian growing up expending a LOT of .303 ammo, ALL of which was corrosive AND mercuric, I was made well aware of proper cleaning at an early age.
Don't worry too much about the "mercuric" thing because that is only relevant to the reloading life of the brass. The chloride salts deposited by "corrosive" primers are what kills barrels.
Thorough cleaning, as soon as possible after firing, will keep your barrel in good shape. Leaving it for a couple of days may do some nasty things to the rifling. A basic "wipe through' at the range and a thorough job when you get home will keep the rust bugs at bay. Re-cleaning and oiling a few days later is also a good idea.
Just oiling it is not enough, as the salts are only water-soluble and will start to attack the barrel steel under the oil film.
If you have a LOT of the DA stuff and intend to do a fair bit of "rapid' shooting, your barrel may just get some accelerated throat erosion. That is because the original "Cordite' propellant burns VERY hot. It is not "bad" ammo, just "full of surprises" for the unwary.
In actual military systems, appropriate cleaning facilities and materials are provided and proper cleaning procedures are / were taught and enforced.. In "civilian" life? Not so much.
Timely and appropriate cleaning is a LOT cheaper than a replacement barrel.
Thanks Bruce. I think I got one other headstamp in the batch, I will post a picture of that one when I get a chance.
I found 2 more types. From what I can see the HXP 73 is non corrosive and should be good ammo. The other one is Winchester ammo so I would assume it is non corrosive, but I figured I would ask.
I found this about the Winchester ammo:
Winchester Western Division of Olin Industries, New Haven, Conn., USA. Produced nitro-cellulose loaded .303 180 gr Jacketed soft point sporting Ammunition.
I know this might sound stupid to a lot of people, but is nitro-cellulose corrosive?
Thanks for any info.
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Nitro powder isn't corrosive. The concerns about corrosive effects on the barrel are spurred by the priming compounds whose residue contains hydroscopic salts as laid out by Bruce. It'll do a number on your barrel if left unattended.
If you see original ball ammo head stamped Mk.VII like your Canadian Dominion Arsenal example, it's going to be cordite powder with corrosive primers. If the headstamp is Mk.VIIz, the cartridge will be loaded with nitro-cellulose powder and most likely have non-corrosive primers but not always. That being said, treat ALL ammo as corrosive and you'll never have a problem with it.
Thanks Brian, your reply cleared up the nitro-cellulose question. I originally though that was what the primer was made off, now I understand that is the "powder". So any thoughts on if the Winchester round with the ww supper headstamp would have corrosive primers. I couldn't find anything stating if Winchester ever used corrosive primers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
When I was a Cadet, as soon as we finished shooting and whilst the barrel was still warm, we would swab out the barrel with a patch soaked in Aquoil (3 parts water and one part Youngs 303). We used to call it "milk" because it was a milky colour. Obviously the water in the mix would neutralise the salts from the Mercuric primer. As soon as the patches started coming out clean we would revert to neat Youngs.
Not sure about the Canadian .303, but lots of Canadian wartime ammo was non-corrosive.......DUE TO THE PRIMING USED, NOT THE POWDER. The S&B commercial, Winchester, HXP are all NON-corrosive primed.
Thanks for the post JonnyC. I have been looking and looking for info, for several days at this point, that is way I posted. Do you have any resources (links\websites) that you used to figure this out (for my future reference)? or are you using your personal experience with the different rounds?Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyc
Just wanted to learn in case I run into this situation again the in future.
Thanks Again
The absolute best .303 Ball I've ever fired was 1944 vintage DA issued to my Cadet Corps(which I later Commanded) back in the Fall of about 1980. I was a BNIB Civilian Instructor. It was way more accurate than the IVI crappola we got later.
1944 vintage DA stuff is not corrosive. No Cordite in it. The only "solvent" the CF issued for cleaning weapons, of any kind, was 10W-30 motor oil. We had no issues with rusting.
The S&B and Winchester is current commercial ammo. It's not corrosive either.
The HXP is Greek milsurp.
Nitro-cellulose is "gun cotton". Used to make single base gun powders like most IMR stick powders. Nothing to worry about.
Thanks makes perfect sense, I am learning a lot in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunray
Thanks for the input Sunray.
The S&B is non corrosive... The Canadian surplus is corrosive primed. The S&B is commerical ammo. I've notice a lot of military surplus 303 coming in recently that is non corrosive... Such as the German MEN brand ammo and the Greek HXP. My LGS for whatever reason seems to be getting a lot of surplus 303 ammo in... where do they get it? I don't know. I bought my 1939 RL cupro there as well and most of my POF and 2 bandoliers (95 rounds) of GB 50 mk7. One bandolier for whatever reason was missing 5 rounds of the GB 50 303 and was replaced with Greek HXP 1969 dates ammo instead. I pulled those bandoliers out of a metal box... Not sure how long the metal box had been opened for though.
i treat all ex mil ammo a corrosive if you are that worried take a thermos of hot water and pour it down the barrel before you come home if it bugs you that much don’t use it at all i know blokes that refuse to shoot any ex mil at all
yay, hot water usually helps if you're paranoid..nice pointQuote:
i treat all ex mil ammo a corrosive if you are that worried take a thermos of hot water and pour it down the barrel before you come home if it bugs you that much don’t use it at all i know blokes that refuse to shoot any ex mil at all
I have a travel kettle that works of the car lighter socket. Just throw some boing water down it at the range then more at home, happy days.
I'm also sure that Canadian ammo wasn't corrosive at all during the war. I've searched for the information and Canadian gun forums, and didn't find the evidence about the corrosiveness of their ammo. It was also a pretty interesting thread on r/canadaguns about the 7.62x39 steel ammo and people were pretty suspicious about it. And in general, people don't like steel ammo because it badly affects guns. As I read at https://bulkmunitions.com/whats-the-...-new-shooters/ some of the steel ammo is bad for rifles in particular. That's the reason I don't use steel ammo anymore, but also use hot water in cases to protect my guns from this.Quote:
Not sure about the Canadianicon .303, but lots of Canadian wartime ammo was non-corrosive....
All ammunition is both corrosive and errosive - it is just the amount that varies.
Period information :
'Regulations For Army Ordnance Services', Vol.3, Pam.11A (1949) comments:-
APPENDIX 15
USE OF .303-IN CORDITE AND N.C. AMMUNITION
1. The action of Cordite propellant in the barrel of a .303-in. weapon is quite different from that of N.C. propellant.
Cordite gives a rapid build-up of pressure with great heat, leading to pitting and erosion of the chamber end of the barrel.
N.C., however, gives a more gradual build-up of pressure with less heat, and this in turn gives uniformity of barrel wear from chamber to muzzle, the amount of pitting and erosion being greatly reduced.
2. With Cordite propellant, set-up of the bullet is most pronounced and even when the chamber end of the barrel is well worn, the muzzle end still has sufficient rifling left to impart the necessary spin. As the wear advances up the barrel, so the accuracy of the weapon is progressively reduced.
With an N.C. propellant, set-up of the bullet is slow and by no means so pronounced, due to the more gradual building up of pressure. The barrel retains its original accuracy until wear reaches a critical stage, when a sudden falling off in accuracy occurs.
3. It can be seen by comparison with the effects of barrel wear that to use N.C. ammunition in a barrel which has fired Cordite will give serious inaccuracy in flight, whereas the use of Cordite ammunition in a barrel which has fired N.C. gives good accuracy, but serious changed the wear pattern of the barrel.
In the first case, i.e. a weapon which has fired Cordite ammunition the barrel will be eroded and fissured in the first few inches up from the chamber, the part in which obturation should occur. The poor set-up of the bullet, in the N.C. cartridge is not sufficient to give good gas sealing in such a barrel and the bullet does not, therefore, receive the maximum impulse. The resultant loss in velocity and instability due to lack of spin lead to a high degree of inaccuracy.
In the second case, Cordite ammunition fired from a barrel which shows uniformity of wear from firing N.C. ammunition, has an adequate reserve of set-up that ensures full gas sealing, with satisfactory velocity and spin. Unless the barrel wear is in a advanced stage due to firing a large number of N.C. rounds, there will be no immediate appreciable loss in accuracy. Furthermore, the decline in accuracy for Cordite ammunition will follow the normal gradual fall-off experience in weapons firing Cordite alone, as the wear at C of R progresses.
4. Trials have proved that even if only a few rounds of Cordite ammunition are fired from an "N.C." barrel, the ensuing accuracy life when N.C. is subsequently fired is reduced considerably. The occasional and restricted use of N.C. in a "Cordite" barrel will however, have little effect on its ensuing accuracy life for Cordite, although naturally the fire of N.C. will not be very accurate.
5. The effect of wear of barrels can be determined by firing shots through a paper screen at 100 yards. If, on examination of the screen, all shot holes are not perfectly round, then the barrel is no longer fit for use.
The danger lies in the fact that bullets fired erratically from badly worn barrels may overcome their instability in flight and take up a steady flight in the direction in which they happen to be pointing, with short-ranging and disastrous results if used for overhead fire. Except under these conditions of long-range firing there is no risk involved, though in normal range firing inaccurate fire will result.
6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-
(a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.
(i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
(ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
(iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
(iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.
(b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.
Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.
(c) Light M.G.s.
Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.
(d) Rifles.
N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
above, if necessity should arise.
7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stenciling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.
8. It must be noted that the above restrictions apply only to ammunition fired from British weapons. All American ammunition is N.C. loaded and their weapons are designed to fire it satisfactorily.
And now we need only know which barrels are "N.C." and which are not! ;)
And I assume "N.C." refers to "non-cordite" or "no cordite"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
Nitro Cellulose
https://i.postimg.cc/hGpJL7sy/Mk7-M8-ammunition.jpg
Hmmm - looks like there may still be some glitches in the forum - cannot upload pictures.